Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Garrette]

Actually the most devout Mennonites( Quakers) and Orthodox Jews and maybe sects of Islam are the most adherent to the Law. I also find them to be very sweet personally, as well as helpful and charitable. In 1986 we had a big blow up around the Barrie Ontario area hundreds of hundred year old barns were knocked down. The Mennonites from the Kitchener Ontario area still build that type of structur and have/had the expertise to raise all the barns back up. They came with over a hundred men and had their womenfolk with them. The men raised over 150 barns that had blown down, they clad the barns with steel ( the old boards were not an option)
Their womenfolk set up kitchens and tables and fed all comers. Then when the work was done they packed up and went home.
And you couldnt pay them if you wanted to.
They were just being neighbourly.

Thats what I call fundamental Bible style faith.

Good for them. If true as you are reporting it, they deserve kudos and gratitude.

Do you know about Save the Children? It does excellent work (usually) for needy children around the world. Very low overhead. They're secular.

People can be good people just because they're good people. To say they're good people because of their christian faith has as much merit as me saying I contribute time and money in my town because I wear comfortable ranch-style boots (I usually do).

 

[kurious_kathy]

The only one who can be blamed for this lack of knowledge is the lord himself. He could have made it perfectly clear, if he'd chosen. At least according to the attributes he is commonly ascribed.

Ignorance is not bliss Garrette. My dad for some reason has just chosen to never read the Bible and it's definitely cost him.

I've had lots of good things happen/given to me. No evidence they came from any god, and pretending otherwise does a disservice to those who did the work.

Well I still say God uses people. He puts people in everyone life to reflect his love.

Twaddle. Is Fred Phelps wrong in his interpretation?

I don't know, I have never listened to him but my husband has said to me he's not correctly teaching scripture.

Was David Koresh wrong?

Don't know the guy.

Was the Heaven's Gate cult wrong?

This guy was bad news and everyone knows it.

Was Joseph Smith wrong?

Yes, Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

If you say any of them are wrong, then you are doing what you say cannot be done.

If you say none of them are wrong, then you are saying no one, including Kurious Kathy and you, is right or can be right, because there is no reconciling some of these interpretations.

I can say those guys must not be of God if they are teaching bad stuff. The Holy Spirit gives us the discernment we all need if we are in fact filled with Him as true believers are.

And I'm not saying we all know everything either, it takes time to grow in the truth and knowledge of the Lord, and He is faithful to help us. That's why scripture even tells us He will send His Holy Spriit as a counselor to help lead us into all truth.

 

[Canadian Malcontent]

The only one who can be blamed for this lack of knowledge is the lord himself. He could have made it perfectly clear, if he'd chosen. At least according to the attributes he is commonly ascribed.

I've had lots of good things happen/given to me. No evidence they came from any god, and pretending otherwise does a disservice to those who did the work.

Canadian Malcontent
" " Interpetation of Scripture comes only from within by the Holy Spirit" "


Twaddle. Is Fred Phelps wrong in his interpretation?

Was David Koresh wrong?

Was the Heaven's Gate cult wrong?

Was Joseph Smith wrong?

If you say any of them are wrong, then you are doing what you say cannot be done.

^^^^^^^^^^^ Part of current post^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can tell you what I think is right and wrong, what I cannot tell you is what GOD thinks. Do you understand?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you say none of them are wrong, then you are saying no one, including Kurious Kathy and you, is right or can be right, because there is no reconciling some of these interpretations.

Kurious kathy and I can read the Bible and be nurtured and instructed by the Living Word of God as can you Garrette. But what I cannot do is apply my understanding to your relationship with God or to your life in general and represent MY words as Scriptural Truth. You see there is God's Word and there is my understanding of it. the two are different things entirely and its very important not to get them mixed up.
Do you understand?
"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Your not serious are you?

 

[Paulhoff]

Kathy you are cleansed in the blood of the Lamb from the instant you accepted God's Grace (Christ).........

I’m going to throw-up with all this BS.

Paul

 

[RandFan]

So you acknowlege goodness but not where it comes from? Did you ever stop to think that when someone shows you love and kindness God may be trying to show you something?

Yesterday a driver in Los Angeles was reaching for the cell phone and struck a mother and child killing the child and seriously injuring the mother. What exactly was god trying to show the mother?

 

[Garrette]

Ignorance is not bliss Garrette.

God made the Egyptians ignorant. God chose not to choose them. God chose not to choose your father.

My dad for some reason has just chosen to never read the Bible and it's definitely cost him.

No. He didn't chose to never read "for some reason." He never had a reason to choose to read.

Big difference, and it's what people have been telling you here. Myself, I've read it. I've believed. Then I investigated it. Now I no longer chose to believe in what is internally contradictory, inherently cruel, irrational in the extreme, and unnecessary for any productive undertaking.

Well I still say God uses people.

You may say it all you like, but you are unable to prove it or even to give strong evidence for it.

He puts people in everyone life to reflect his love.

Then he also puts people in everyone's life to reflect his cruelty and hate.

I don't know, I have never listened to him but my husband has said to me he's not correctly teaching scripture.

So you're interpreting, and Canadian Malcontent was wrong when he said no one can tell you what scripture means.

Don't know the guy.

Consider yourself fortunate. I suspect you'd have fallen for his spiel.

This guy was bad news and everyone knows it.

Not according to you and Canadian Malcontent. He read scripture. The holy spirit told him what it meant. You're saying the holy spirit was wrong?

Yes, Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

How do you distinguish between false prophets and real prophets?

I can say those guys must not be of God if they are teaching bad stuff.

How do you define bad stuff? How do you do it without telling someone what scripture means (telling them what scripture doesn't mean is the same thing)?

The Holy Spirit gives us the discernment we all need if we are in fact filled with Him as true believers are.

You claim the holy spirit give you discernment. Koresh claimed that, too. Same with Joseph Smith. Same with Mohammed. How does an outsider determine who is truthful?

What criteria are you using?

And I'm not saying we all know everything either, it takes time to grow in the truth and knowledge of the Lord, and He is faithful to help us.

Help us? I doubt it. It is within his power, assuming he's real and that his attributes are as christians claim they are, to simply grant the truth and knowledge to everyone merely by willing it.

Yet he chooses not to.

That's why scripture even tells us He will send His Holy Spriit as a counselor to help lead us into all truth.

No leading required. Simply make it so.

 

[Garrette]

kurious kathy,

as an aside, I suggest you stop wasting time praying for your father to be saved:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Garrette]

Kurious kathy and I can read the Bible and be nurtured and instructed by the Living Word of God as can you Garrette.

I've read it, thanks. Been born again, too, though most of my reading happened after that. The born again part felt great in a now-I'm-part-of-something-that-makes-me-feel-special kind of way but did nothing for actually answering any questions.

But what I cannot do is apply my understanding to your relationship with God or to your life in general and represent MY words as Scriptural Truth.

Ah. So it's not a perfect message. Funny how a perfect god would write an imperfect manual. So imperfect, in fact, that it gives birth to people like Koresh and Smith.

You see there is God's Word and there is my understanding of it. the two are different things entirely and its very important not to get them mixed up.

Yet all it would take to grant you perfect understanding is the willingness of your god to do it.

Do you understand?

Quite well.

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast


You are doing what you simultaneously claim you can't do. You are telling other people what scripture means, both in general and for them.
Your not serious are you?[/quote]

 

[Freethinker]

Actually the most devout Mennonites( Quakers) and Orthodox Jews and maybe sects of Islam are the most adherent to the Law.

Mennonites are not Quakers by any stretch of the imagination. You will find this forum an unfriendly place if you play loose with facts.

 

[Garrette]

Yesterday a driver in Los Angeles was reaching for the cell phone and struck a mother and child killing the child and seriously injuring the mother. What exactly was god trying to show the mother?

Not to use Cingular.

To be less flippant about what is not a flippant incident or topic:

The answer is nothing. There is nothing any loving god could be showing the mother.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Yesterday a driver in Los Angeles was reaching for the cell phone and struck a mother and child killing the child and seriously injuring the mother. What exactly was god trying to show the mother?

Now how in the heck would I know the answer to that question? Bad things happen all the time in this fallen world. Pain is a part of life why because it just is. Seems pretty obvious to me we can't have life without death and we do know why everyone dies in this life. Wages of sin is death, nobody escapes that in the physical life, but we can avoid a second death, the spiritual death which must be acknowledged. If people stick their heads in the sand like an ostrich it won't help them to the dealing with this fact.

I'm editing this response to add a link for you RF that I think may offer you some useful info on How God Uses Suffering by John Mac Arthur....
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-83.htm
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-84.htm

 

[Garrette]

Now how in the heck would I know the answer to that question? Bad things happen all the time in this fallen world. Pain is a part of life why because it just is. Seems pretty obvious to me we can't have life without death and we do know why everyone dies in this life. Wages of sin is death, nobody escapes that in the physical life, but we can avoid a second death, the spiritual death which must be acknowledged. If people stick their heads in the sand like an ostrich it won't help them to this dealing with this fact.

You can't fit it into how you want your god to be so you won't consider it to review your faith.

There is a lot of sand around, kathy. I suggest you determine whose heads are in it.

 

[Gurdur]

....There is a lot of sand around,....

Is this another Iraq thread?
Whooops. My bad.

 

[kurious_kathy]

You can't fit it into how you want your god to be so you won't consider it to review your faith.

There is a lot of sand around, kathy. I suggest you determine whose heads are in it.

Excuse me? I'm not the one that has no faith here Garrette. I accept that I'm not God and will never know all things, only God knows all things.

He even knows each and everyone of us better than we know ourselves. I admit I'm a sinner in need of a savior and because of Him I now have more purpose in this life than I can even realize. I'm alive because Jesus saved me. Am I perfect no, never have been or will be, I just trust the one that is!

 

[Garrette]

Excuse me? I'm not the one that has no faith here Garrette.

Yes. That's the point. Try re-reading. And it's not just that you have faith. It's that you have faith in the face of internal contradictions, demonstrably cruel and hateful acts by your god in your bible, and indications that your bible is just a conglomeration of related stories.

And finally, it's that you think the fact that you have this baseless faith is enough to convince those who know your own religion better than you do to adopt it, and you're amazed when they don't.

I accept that I'm not God and will never know all things, only God knows all things.

Then he knows what would cause me to believe. He doesn't just know it, he made it that way.

Yet he chooses not to do anything about it.

He even knows each and everyone of us better than we know ourselves.

Then he has no business getting mad and condemning me for acting on the imperfect knowledge he gave me while retaining perfect knowledge for himself.

I admit I'm a sinner

If you'll allow me to broaden "sinner" to include atheists who sometimes act in ways they consider wrong and hurtful, then I am one, too. I've never had a problem admitting that.

in need of a savior

Nope. Not me. I'm grateful for those close to me who've helped, tolerated, understood, and kicked my in the butt when I needed it. And I'm even occasionally proud of myself for managing to stop doing some of the stuff I'm ashamed of. But a savior? In the form of the guy who, according to you, gave me the faults to begin with? Not a chance.

and because of Him I now have more purpose in this life than I can even realize.

My purpose is my kids.

I'm alive because Jesus saved me.

I'm alive because my parents conceived me and my mother gave birth to me and I've been fortunate not to be culled from the herd since.

Am I perfect no, never have been or will be,

No one here claims perfection or requires it of others.

I just trust the one that is!

You think he's perfect? Even though he acts imperfectly, created man imperfectly, wrote an imperfect message, has imperfect prophets who deliver imperfectly worded lessons, and reacts to transgressions and to worship imperfectly?

That truly is faith.

 

[kurious_kathy]

kurious kathy,

as an aside, I suggest you stop wasting time praying for your father to be saved:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Who's to say what God can do to reach anyone? I have certainly felt a seperation from some of my family because of Christ, but it hasn't cost me totally walking away from them either. It's just really hard now cause they see a new me but they aren't sure how to deal with my new found faith in Christ. Why is it so hard for people to accept Christ? Obviously we do become new when we accept him.

No one not even my family can make me shut up so quit asking. I'm on fire for the Lord and very excited about what he's done and what he's gona do next. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Jesus changes things. Last Sunday eve I told my hubby I was gona enjoy watching the NRB station which has some of the best teachers on all in a row and he cracked up and called me a Jesus freak. Guess he's right, I am.

 

[Garrette]

Who's to say what God can do to reach anyone?

According to christians who claim both omnipotence and omniscience for god, then he can do anything, including simply willing that your father be "reached" or saved.

I have certainly felt a seperation from some of my family because of Christ, but it hasn't cost me totally walking away from them either.

Then you're not saved. Here it is again:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

It's just really hard now cause they see a new me but they aren't sure how to deal with my new found faith in Christ.

I suggest you stop trying to get them to deal with your faith and instead get them to deal with you. You're family. Families hold on to each other even when they don't hold on to the behavior of others.

Why is it so hard for people to accept Christ?

Given that christianity is the world's largest religion, I don't know why you think it's hard.

Obviously we do become new when we accept him.

No. We experience new emotions because we feel part of a new community, one that makes old promises in new forms.

You might just as well say people become new when they join Alcoholis Anonymous or the Teamsters.

No one not even my family can make me shut up so quit asking. I'm on fire for the Lord and very excited about what he's done and what he's gona do next. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Jesus changes things.[/quote]

 

[cyborg]

Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Jesus changes things.

It's true - last week he changed my light bulbs!

I'm on fire for the Lord and very excited about what he's done and what he's gona do next.

Gotta love the way you make your lord sound like a pop-act.

 

[Tanstaafl]

No one not even my family can make me shut up so quit asking. I'm on fire for the Lord and very excited about what he's done and what he's gona do next. Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Jesus changes things. Last Sunday eve I told my hubby I was gona enjoy watching the NRB station which has some of the best teachers on all in a row and he cracked up and called me a Jesus freak. Guess he's right, I am.

I haven't generally seen people here asking you to shut up. Okay, some have, but most of us have asked only that you stop throwing boilerplate platitudes at us, and instead engage in some reasoned discussion.

You know, the type where people directly answer questions, and present opinions and alleged facts in their own words? And where they offer some sort of evidence for alleged facts which are in dispute?

I for one would much rather you did that, and kept posting, rather than shut up.

 

[Ducky]

Whether you guys want to admit it or not, Jesus changes things.

Yeah he was dong the landscaping here last week.




EDIT: Damnit cyborg!