Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

Huntster
Where knowledge ends, faith or doubt begins.
So, your entire life is built on doubt?

You are, however, making one enormous mistake - how could I hate that which is non-existent?
If I was given a penny for each time I've been insulted with that statement on this forum, I'd pay off the national debt.
That’s nice, but are you going to The Atheist ‘s answer the question?

This game again, Ossai? Changing somebody else's words? On a written forum, where they are easily retrievable? And you call me a liar?
I never claimed they were your original words. I said I corrected your statements. Apparently, sarcasm is lost on you as well.

Yet again you prove your true colors by denying what is clearly stated, again and again and again and again.


I noticed that you didn’t comment on my other post. Does that mean you finally read and understood it? If you just skipped it, here is the relevant portion, again.

If someone is unable to freely reject because of ignorance then they are unable to freely choose because of ignorance.
Which brings us right back to:
A person ignorant of your god = straight to hell
A person raised in another culture, but has heard of the RCC/Christianity/etc = straight to hell
A person mentally incapable of making a free choice to exclude or include god = straight to hell

Ossai
 
Then don't lie and call it FREE, it is that simple.

A poor assumption, if I was on a christian forum, I would then be a christian, not.

Straw man argument, I said none of these things, if I wanted to I would have.

Paul

:) :) :)
You are playing games with the word free, and I call BS on your BS.

The freedom to choose nowhere implies that choices do not entail opportunity cost, neither in religion nor commerce. That is inherent in the condition of choice.

Free, as in unconstrained, does not imply nor infer free from the laws of physics either: free radical.

You may take your lie, or better yet, your false accusation of lie as applied to my post, as well as your attempt to redefine a word to suit your prejudices, and park it.

May I take it from your evasion and non answer that you neither claim to be a skeptic, nor a determinist?

Is that analysis correct?

DR
 
In no way close, not close at all. You don't understand, but that is because of the years exposure to non-logic that the religious around you have used for years. They are good at using twisted logic and unfortunately many have fallen into that trap by association.

If you need labels, that is not my problem but yours. Words are a limit to thought, only people who need words think that without them there can be no thought. Label me anyway you want because you have in your mind done this already.

Paul

:) :) :)

Back to watching Babylon 5, many things in it are so true today.
 
Free-will can not have a cost, a punishment, be foretold and or known of in advance by anything, or it is not free-will.

No "punishment", perhaps, but free will certainly has consequences.

Also free-will like god, infinity, sin, heaven etc are only things of the mind and have nothing with reality.

They are things of the spirit, and many believe that is as real as physical things.

Also there is no free-will, because with every choice there is a cost, for some choices to do one, you can not do another and or can not take back that choice.

Correct. Those are "consequences", not "punishments."

Religious free-will is really bogus with having a so-call all-knowing god, a god that already knows the outcome, and will judge on that, knowing that it has made imperfect beings, knows that they will make imperfect choices and then condemns them for making those imperfect choices and or being imperfect.

Creating imperfect beings with free-choice to either seek perfection, or reject it and live with the consequences, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 
Huntster
Quote:
Where knowledge ends, faith or doubt begins.

So, your entire life is built on doubt?

It is balanced with both. What I lack in knowledge about a particular subject, I exercise either faith, doubt, or indifference.

Quote:
You are, however, making one enormous mistake - how could I hate that which is non-existent?

If I was given a penny for each time I've been insulted with that statement on this forum, I'd pay off the national debt.

That’s nice, but are you going to The Atheist ‘s answer the question?

No, I'm not. It's not a question, it's a game. I've played that game with fowlsound, and have no interest in playing it with the likes of you or The Atheist.

Quote:
This game again, Ossai? Changing somebody else's words? On a written forum, where they are easily retrievable? And you call me a liar?

I never claimed they were your original words. I said I corrected your statements. Apparently, sarcasm is lost on you as well.

Sarcasm. Yeah. That's what it is.

Right.

Yet again you prove your true colors by denying what is clearly stated, again and again and again and again.

I noticed that you didn’t comment on my other post. Does that mean you finally read and understood it? If you just skipped it, here is the relevant portion, again.

Quote:
If someone is unable to freely reject because of ignorance then they are unable to freely choose because of ignorance.
Which brings us right back to:
A person ignorant of your god = straight to hell
A person raised in another culture, but has heard of the RCC/Christianity/etc = straight to hell
A person mentally incapable of making a free choice to exclude or include god = straight to hell

Try reading it again. Maybe you'll get it the second time around.
 
consequences

Then it is not FREE, what is so hard to understand.

Paul

:) :) :)

Don't deguise it.
 
If I was given a penny for each time I've been insulted with that statement on this forum, I'd pay off the national debt.
Mate, I always admire perseverance and the fortitude - you certainly pass both those tests. Personally, while I hate your doctrine, I think you're not a bad bloke. Please be aware that my insults are hurled at your faith, not you as a person.
100% is pure knowledge. To claim to have that is foolish, a lie, or elevating opinion to truth.
Nearly, but not quite - I'd class it as removal of the infinitesimally small possibility to call it truth. I don't know everything, just most things! :)
And even if it was true that you don't hate God Himself, you appear to hate something.
I do. I said what I hate - the waste. The enormity of wasting the amount of human talent and resources in the name of a fairy tale. Look, your own beliefs in the RCC doctrine must mean that you despise the more outrageous religious frauds yourself - those fundies with the enormous churches and congregations whose only reason raison d'etre is the lining of the pockets of the "Pastors".

I'll grudgingly grant that while RCC probably has the least savoury history of the major christian branches, current doctrine is not actually evil - although I'd argue that the inability of the pope to endorse condoms is absurd and dangerous.
Pity, in this situation, is a two-way street.
Oh, obviously. I've had lots of christians - including catholics - who have prayed for me and my soul because, as good, caring christians, you don't like the thought of even the most evil among us
to go to hell and hope that one day I'll wake up. We are after all, just on opposite sides of the same fence. In the same way, I wouldn't let the fact that you're a christian stop me from helping you in life, if you ever needed it.
 
Can one accept God's salvation without believing in God?

I don't believe God is accurately described in the Bible, but if it turns out that He is, then I fully accept Jesus' sacrifice for me.

I guess I'll see you in Heaven, KK and Huntster.
 
Can one accept God's salvation without believing in God?

I don't believe God is accurately described in the Bible, but if it turns out that He is, then I fully accept Jesus' sacrifice for me.

I guess I'll see you in Heaven, KK and Huntster.
Under the rubric of Pascal's wager, that may work. Best of luck, either way. :)

DR
 
consequences
Then it is not FREE, what is so hard to understand.

Don't deguise it.
The word Free is not limited to a single definition, nor degree.

In engineering, there is a term called "degrees of freedom."

How hard is that to understand? Welcome to English for college graduates, which is not the same as a computer programming language. ;)

DR
 
Mate, I always admire perseverance and the fortitude - you certainly pass both those tests. Personally, while I hate your doctrine, I think you're not a bad bloke. Please be aware that my insults are hurled at your faith, not you as a person.

You know, I like your wit and certainly your "accent" (I can literally read it!)

Please be likewise aware that my insults are hurled at your lack of faith, not you as a person.

Originally Posted by Huntster
And even if it was true that you don't hate God Himself, you appear to hate something.

I do. I said what I hate - the waste. The enormity of wasting the amount of human talent and resources in the name of a fairy tale. Look, your own beliefs in the RCC doctrine must mean that you despise the more outrageous religious frauds yourself - those fundies with the enormous churches and congregations whose only reason raison d'etre is the lining of the pockets of the "Pastors".

Nope. I don't "hate" them. I don't even dislike them.

I may not agree with their theology or doctrine 100%, and they not mine, but I don't hold them in distain at all.

I'll grudgingly grant that while RCC probably has the least savoury history of the major christian branches, current doctrine is not actually evil - although I'd argue that the inability of the pope to endorse condoms is absurd and dangerous.

The condom thing was discussed deeply and with great warmth in a thread I can't seem to find.

Originally Posted by Huntster
Pity, in this situation, is a two-way street.

Oh, obviously. I've had lots of christians - including catholics - who have prayed for me and my soul because, as good, caring christians, you don't like the thought of even the most evil among us
to go to hell and hope that one day I'll wake up. We are after all, just on opposite sides of the same fence.


It's true. I'll pray for you, too.

But my faith isn't that strong...........
 
Can one accept God's salvation without believing in God?

I don't know how.

I don't believe God is accurately described in the Bible, but if it turns out that He is, then I fully accept Jesus' sacrifice for me.

Well, not believing in God and not believing He is accurately described in the Bible are two very different things.

Fully accepting the Lamb, even just at the end, is acceptance. Your faith is weak, and I don't know the consequences of that, but at least you're not in rejection mode.

I guess I'll see you in Heaven, KK and Huntster.

I hope so. For all three of us, as well as everybody else.
 
"Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it will be opened unto you."

...

Were you aware of what is known as "the dark night of the soul"? Even the most holy of RCC saints endured it. I've gone through a couple, and I believe them to be the most dark, lonely, and desperate periods of my life. I didn't understand why God left me. I was angry. I was afraid. I didn't know what I could do to put an end to it. It was finally a complete surrender to something that brought it to an end with such a spiritual epiphany that I immediately knew what it was what God had wanted with me.

He has rewarded me for my surrender, faith, and endurance with riches that I can hardly believe.

...

"Accept like a child." We all know how children can believe. With innocence. With love. Children are a natural for God and Heaven. It's when they grow and learn doubt that they fall.

...

As long as you don't intentionally exclude yourself from God, He will forgive you.

...

Don't loose faith. Good luck, my friend.

I find this somewhat troubling in that, as I mentioned, I did seek. I did knock. I found nothing and no one answered the door. This wasn't for a few weeks, it was close to half a decade. As a child, I might add. God would subject a child to a "dark night of the soul" before giving any reason for faith beyond the written word? If children are naturals for faith, where was mine? I wasn't questioning. I accepted what my parents told me. God existed. I just never felt its presence, ever. When I was old enough to articulate that lack of feeling, that was when I started to have questions.

So it wasn't that I moved away from God. It was that I felt there was nothing to move away from. There was just me, trying to move closer to something I couldn't sense at all and never had.

I feel I should mention that my childhood was free of hardships from outside myself. There was no, "How can God let these terrible things happen to me?" experience at all. There was simply no feeling of "God" in my life, despite reading Bible stories and being baptized and praying before bed every night. It was just never there, not once that I can remember. And it does seem like the sort of thing a person would remember if s/he'd ever had it, based on descriptions.

That's why I find those types of quotes so frustrating. As I child, I sought as a child, I strove to believe, I begged for help, I tried to have faith in something that had never felt real. You say you've had payoffs for your faith after "dark nights" in the past. It never came for me, and at the time I gave up trying, I'd been actively begging for one-third of my life. Maybe God would disagree, but I think I was pretty patient, especially for an adolescent child.

So I don't feel like I'm excluding myself from God even in my disbelief. I came to the conclusion that, since it was promised that a knock would be answered and no one came when I tried really hard, there must be no one home to answer the door (or else he doesn't want to see me, which seems unlikely in the conceit* I'm spinning here). If no one is home, there's no point in continuing to knock, so I might as well get on with my life. If, when I leave my home, it turns out I'm moving to that house after all, I'll explain that I came by every day for a long time and there was no one around, so I had to continue with grocery shopping and work and everything else he told me was good to do; if the guy who lives there is worth staying with, he'll let me in because he's seen me be a good person for my whole life (except that time in middle school when I was cruel, but I've felt really sorry about it ever since) and that I tried in good faith, for lack of a better term, to get in touch with him.

And if he sends me to the crackhouse down the street because I didn't keep pounding fruitlessly on his door for the rest of my life, that's totally Not Cool.

Thank you, Huntster. I really appreciate that you took the time to answer my questions. With all the arguing that goes on in these threads, it's nice to be able to have at least a brief exchange of civility. I also thank you for your well wishes and I hope life (and whatever after) goes well for you, too.

*5. an elaborate, fanciful metaphor, esp. of a strained or far-fetched nature. by dictionary.com

P.S. Darth Rotor, come on. English for college graduates? As though proficiency in the language comes only through a college education? I hope you didn't mean that, because it's very silly. There must be more sensible ways to insult people who lack comprehension.
 
P.S. Darth Rotor, come on. English for college graduates? As though proficiency in the language comes only through a college education? I hope you didn't mean that, because it's very silly. There must be more sensible ways to insult people who lack comprehension.
Nudge in the ribs accepted for lack of craft and art. I'll try to do better in the future. :) The wages of posting in a hurry are all too often poorly crafted prose. :(

DR
 
Eh, I suppose I shouldn't be too hard on you about it; it's not like I can craft an effective insult even given the wretchedly long time it takes me to put together a post.
 
.....If no one is home, there's no point in continuing to knock, so I might as well get on with my life....

If nobody was home, go back another day and bang on the door again. Maybe He'll be home then:

Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, "There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, 'Render a just decision for me against my adversary.' For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, 'While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.'" The Lord said, "Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says. Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Luke 18:1-8

Thank you, Huntster. I really appreciate that you took the time to answer my questions. With all the arguing that goes on in these threads, it's nice to be able to have at least a brief exchange of civility. I also thank you for your well wishes and I hope life (and whatever after) goes well for you, too.

And thank you very much. It is very nice to particpate in a civil exchange with one such as yourself. I've enjoyed it very much, and truly wish you the best.
 
Lucky me. I come back in from a week on the road to read all of this. Nice.

The whole idea of "Worship me or rot" pretty much kills off the idea of Free Will. If you have that sort of a choice, you haven't one; if you choose to Salvation, for what it's worth, it's pretty much from coercion. If you choose Hell, it's an indication you're either unbalanced, or you're simply being contrary to the point of your own destruction. Neither is good.

The more I read of this, the more convinced I am of its inherent evil. That Kathy continues to threaten people like Fowlsound, playing the continued role of spiritual thug, supports this belief. She reminds me of the mindless clods in the Executive Branch who are running our Foreign policy: There's nothing wrong with our nation's enemies that a couple of nukes and a McDonald's franchise wouldn't solve. It's an affront, it's wrong, and those who espouse it seem to either ignore or be ignorant of just why it's wrong.

I'm tired of this endless bleat from Huntster and Kathy. However, I respond because there's greater evil in allowing it to continue. You either stand up and oppose this hate, or you allow it to ferment and embitter everything it touches.

Try as I might, I still can't figure out why only Kathy's God or Huntster's God are the only "True" Gods. Frankly, if their "Gods" had the corner on the market for Truth, wouldn't we see it in their actions? At least a little, instead of this perpetual "evangelical" assault?
 

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