Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[Azure]

Speaking only for myself, I don't respect irrational beliefs though I do respect other people's rights to those beliefs. And I'll respond in kind if my lack of belief is attacked.

As you should.

Being a skeptic who's read "Why People Believe Weird Things" and "How We Believe", I realize that people rationalize their beliefs (even beliefs in God) in all sorts of funny ways. A lot of them think their reasoning is very logical and based on evidence.

Which would be incorrect.

We agree on that.

 

[Azure]

So being here on a skeptic like forum, what else would you expect? Sorry, but if a god can not be based on physical evidence (the universe) that it is suppose to have made, then that idea of a god is flawed.

Paul

I would expect people to understand.

 

[Azure]

Azure
So you’re a Gnostic?

Ossai

I believe my belief in God does not exist around physical evidence, nor will I seek to provide 'any' sort of evidence to prove that belief, as I find that foolish.

Its called 'faith' for a reason.

 

[Roadtoad]

In the meantime, I think Kathy's called it a day. No word from her in a while. Does this mean we can now get on with intelligent discourse for a change?

 

[RandFan]

I realize that.

I expect people to be skeptical about "god" on this forum, but in that skepticism I would also expect them to respect, and not attack the belief of others.

Being a skeptic, you should realize that belief in God is based on faith, and not physical evidence. Seems like most people on here demand the latter.

I want the latter. I don't demand it. It might seem that I do sometimes. Almost everyone I know and love believe in God. I don't think less of them because they believe in God. I accept that their belief is based on faith and I can respect that. When it comes to debate though I will challenge ideas. However when it comes down to "it's my faith and that is that" then I'm prepared to respect that.

 

[Anacoluthon64]

You are looking for physical evidence of something that does not exist in physical form.

The nature of the evidence suggests the hypothesis; the nature of the hypothesis suggests where to seek contrary evidence. Non-physical existence does not preclude concrete manifestation.

I believe my belief in God does not exist around physical evidence, nor will I seek to provide 'any' sort of evidence to prove that belief, as I find that foolish.

Clearly not foolish enough, though.

'Luthon64

 

[Paulhoff]

Understanding does not equal liking.

Paul

 

[Ossai]

Azure

I believe my belief in God does not exist around physical evidence, nor will I seek to provide 'any' sort of evidence to prove that belief, as I find that foolish.

Its called 'faith' for a reason.

That’s nice and all but is counter to much of the bible. Are you Gnostic in that you don’t believe the whole Jesus story took place physically?

Ossai

 

[cgordon]

The atheist/agnostic 'minority' in the USA is somewhere between 10 and 14%, and may be as much as 16%, depending on which stats and polls you read.

Even if it's at the low end, say 9-10%, that's still a HUGE number of folks who are unbelieving and unchurched; a figure, actually, that's a larger than most Christian denominations.

And when you factor in the reality that the Christians can't even agree on what 'Christian beliefs' are, and some sects are convinced all the others are going to hell anyway ... well.

We ain't such a minority after all.

 

[Tanstaafl]

We ain't such a minority after all.

I agree, especially when you add in the closet atheists, which I suspect paulhoff is correct about.

And back to bumper stickers, at least an approximation of one of my favorites (it was a while ago that I saw it) is:

"Lord, please save me from your followers."

All I can say to that is "RAmen."

 

[Azure]

I want the latter. I don't demand it. It might seem that I do sometimes. Almost everyone I know and love believe in God. I don't think less of them because they believe in God. I accept that their belief is based on faith and I can respect that. When it comes to debate though I will challenge ideas. However when it comes down to "it's my faith and that is that" then I'm prepared to respect that.

And I would expect you to challenge ideas, rather then the evidence one might provide, 'trying' to prove that God exists.

Simply said, it is impossible. That brings us to my biggest problem with Intelligent Design, and the people that support it. ID to me is a theory that is trying to provide proof for something where proof does not exist.

Foolish indeed.

 

[Azure]

Azure
That’s nice and all but is counter to much of the bible. Are you Gnostic in that you don’t believe the whole Jesus story took place physically?

Ossai

Sure I believe it took place physically. Many people believe that.

Where we might differ is in our belief that the same Jesus the walked the earth, is also the Son of God. The latter requires spiritual understanding, not physical truth.

 

[Azure]

The atheist/agnostic 'minority' in the USA is somewhere between 10 and 14%, and may be as much as 16%, depending on which stats and polls you read.

Even if it's at the low end, say 9-10%, that's still a HUGE number of folks who are unbelieving and unchurched; a figure, actually, that's a larger than most Christian denominations.

And when you factor in the reality that the Christians can't even agree on what 'Christian beliefs' are, and some sects are convinced all the others are going to hell anyway ... well.

We ain't such a minority after all.

Indeed. I wasn't aware of the actual number, so I thank you for clarifying that.

You are exactly right when you say

And when you factor in the reality that the Christians can't even agree on what 'Christian beliefs' are, and some sects are convinced all the others are going to hell anyway ... well.

Seems like these days, most religions thrive on the aspect of telling other people they are going to hell, rather then making sure they themselves get to heaven.

 

[wolfgirl]

Almost everyone I know and love believe in God. I don't think less of them because they believe in God. I accept that their belief is based on faith and I can respect that. When it comes to debate though I will challenge ideas. However when it comes down to "it's my faith and that is that" then I'm prepared to respect that.

I have to confess that I actually DO think less of people for believing in any type of god. It doesn't mean I don't love them, of course. One of my sons is a xian, and I feel ashamed that I didn't do a better job of instilling rationality and skepticism in him as a child. (He was an atheist until about age 19, when he met a deeply xian girl...you know the rest of the story...)

Bottom line, I respect people's right to believe whatever they want. But I don't necessarily respect what they believe or respect them for believing it.

 

[wolfgirl]

I wonder how many people are closet atheists, and only say they believe in god (even on polls) just to make it easier to get thru the day with the religious ones.

I know a couple of people who are atheist, or at least agnostic, but would never admit it in public. Too afraid of the negative opinion of others. I've even heard people say they would be afraid that it would hurt them professionally. If your boss is a born-again xian, for example, you might not want to mention that you think his or her whole life is based on a fairy tale.

 

[atari24]

I know a couple of people who are atheist, or at least agnostic, but would never admit it in public. Too afraid of the negative opinion of others. I've even heard people say they would be afraid that it would hurt them professionally. If your boss is a born-again xian, for example, you might not want to mention that you think his or her whole life is based on a fairy tale.

I think there are probably a lot of people who might call themselves believers, but really don't care one way or the other. The apathists.

 

[Paulhoff]

wolfgirl

Well we all hope your son is really a closet atheists.

Paul

 

[Ossai]

Azure

Sure I believe it took place physically. Many people believe that.

This is directly counter to what you said earlier about no physical evidence. If Jr. show up here there should be physical evidence available. Why did the people of the past receive direct physical evidence while we don’t?

Where we might differ is in our belief that the same Jesus the walked the earth is also the Son of God.

Assumption not supported by evidence, or at least not the version of Jesus most churches purport.

The latter requires spiritual understanding, not physical truth.

How do you receive that spiritual understanding?

Ossai

 

[Azure]

I have to confess that I actually DO think less of people for believing in any type of god. It doesn't mean I don't love them, of course. One of my sons is a xian, and I feel ashamed that I didn't do a better job of instilling rationality and skepticism in him as a child. (He was an atheist until about age 19, when he met a deeply xian girl...you know the rest of the story...)

Bottom line, I respect people's right to believe whatever they want. But I don't necessarily respect what they believe or respect them for believing it.

Since when is it your responsibility to dictate what your child believes? If anything, you should be glad he has a mind of his own.

 

[Azure]

This is directly counter to what you said earlier about no physical evidence. If Jr. show up here there should be physical evidence available. Why did the people of the past receive direct physical evidence while we don’t?

Physical evidence of what? Just because they 'saw' Jesus, the son of Mary, does not mean they 'saw' God.

Like I said, many people believe that Jesus walked the earth, yet some do not believe that he was/is the Son of God. The latter requires faith.

If those people had physical evidence right before their eyes, why did so many of them reject him? Could it possibly be that the physical evidence you're talking about, did not exist?

Assumption not supported by evidence, or at least not the version of Jesus most churches purport.

Prove it. Prove to me that everyone that believes that Jesus walked this earth many years ago, 'also' believe that he was the Son of God. Right of the top of my head I can think of a major, major religion that agrees with me.

How do you receive that spiritual understanding?

Its called faith.