Bumper sticker. . .(shudder)

[RandFan]

It's wanting faith, because proof is unavailable.

I want to believe that I'm going to win the lottery.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It's wanting faith, because proof is unavailable.

I want to believe that I'm going to win the lottery.

Good luck.

Sorry you're so focused on money.

You're bound to be disappointed, even if you get the bucks.

 

[Foster Zygote]

It's wanting faith, because proof is unavailable.

But isn't faith then simply a substitute for knowledge? Proof leads in one direction only. Faith can lead you wherever you want to go. I can just as easily have faith in L. Ron Hubbard as faith in Jesus.

 

[RandFan]

If it's not empty (due to doubt and rejection), what's in it?

The love of my family and friends. Responsibility. Reality. Reason. Rationality. Hope. A sincere concern for my fellow man. The concern that others have toward me (JREF folks helped me buy a car when I was down on my luck) Awe of the universe, art, humanity. A desire to improve the world and to be a decent person who contributes to society. Add to that mix science and a small but growing understanding of the universe and the natural world and you get a very full and good life.

Hell, what else could there be? I suppose that I could have faith that there is a giant diamond buried deep in my back yard and that the diamond gives my life meaning and purpose that I couldn't have without the diamond buried in my backyard but that seems to me to be believing in a fairytale unnecessarily. I don't need to have faith in things that are not provable to give my life meaning or fulfillment.

 

[RandFan]

Good luck.

Sorry you're so focused on money.

You're bound to be disappointed, even if you get the bucks.

That was a rhetorical statement.

 

[Tricky]

But isn't faith then simply a substitute for knowledge? Proof leads in one direction only. Faith can lead you wherever you want to go. I can just as easily have faith in L. Ron Hubbard as faith in Jesus.

Faith is only a substitute for knowledge if you feel you must believe something. Skeptics, when they reach a point where their knowledge is insufficient, are perfectly comfortable with saying "I don't know", and either gathering more knowledge or accepting their ignorance on a particular matter. Everyone must decide for themselves what matters are importent enough to them to require gathering knowledge. No one can gather knowledge on everything.

Non-skeptics, on the other hand, when they reach that point may say "I don't know", as Huntster has done many times, but they feel like they must believe something, so they choose to use faith as a tool for deciding what to believe. This in itself is not a terrible thing. Each of us probably has things they were "raised to believe" which are not based on knowledge, but just passed on to us. The difference is, when confronted with these unsupported beliefs, the skeptical attitude is to say, "I should re-examine that belief", while the non-skeptical attitude is to say, "I prefer to believe it even without support".

 

[kurious_kathy]

I don't need to have faith in things that are not provable to give my life meaning or fulfillment.

That's probably very true, but what is a life without any faith? To me that leaves a big gap in a persons life.

You have also reminded me of years ago when I went to a Landmark education weekend. They have people go through this weekend group therapy session and at the end they basically tell you life is empty and meaningless. "How frustrating is that?" There whole education process is telling people they are basically like a computer that is programmed by life experiences and memories. I myself felt very deceived by their philosophy of life that they have acredited themselves for suposedly helping people make emotional breakthroughs. Your statement reminds me very much of what they are teaching people. You haven't by chance ever attended one of these Landmark education weekends have you RF?

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[RandFan]

That's probably very true, but what is a life without any faith?

Asked and answered. A great one.

To me that leaves a big gap in a persons life.

No.

You have also reminded me of years ago when I went to a Landmark education weekend. They have people go through this weekend group therapy session and at the end they basically tell you life is empty and meaningless. "How frustrating is that?"

...

You haven't by chance ever attended one of these Landmark education weekends have you RF?

Huh? Why on earth would my statement remind you of that? I gave a number of reasons why my life was NOT empty and meaningless.

You know kathy, you really are not a very nice person. You are rude and arrogant. I'm glad I have friends that are Christians who are in fact good and decent people. I want others to know that not all Christians are like you. You are a very poor example.

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

That's a rather backhanded way to wish someone happy new year. Tell another person that the person's life is empty and meaningless after he has given you a laundry list of why his life is not empty and meaningless. Thank goodness that I don't know many people like you. I know a lot of Christians but scant few who act with such poor manners.

 

[RandFan]

...what is a life without any faith?

Life without what you call faith is,

The love of my family and friends. Responsibility. Reality. Reason. Rationality. Hope. A sincere concern for my fellow man. The concern that others have toward me (JREF folks helped me buy a car when I was down on my luck) Awe of the universe, art, humanity. A desire to improve the world and to be a decent person who contributes to society. Add to that mix science and a small but growing understanding of the universe and the natural world and you get a very full and good life.

 

[BPScooter]

RandFan wrote:

"The love of my family and friends. Responsibility. Reality. Reason. Rationality. Hope. A sincere concern for my fellow man. The concern that others have toward me (JREF folks helped me buy a car when I was down on my luck) Awe of the universe, art, humanity. A desire to improve the world and to be a decent person who contributes to society. Add to that mix science and a small but growing understanding of the universe and the natural world and you get a very full and good life."

I would add to this only something like curiosity--the thing that gets the person who 'has it all' out of bed in the morning. "what could this day bring? what am i going to learn today?" These are Tony-Robbins-y ideas but not too bad ones.

 

[Tricky]

That's probably very true, but what is a life without any faith? To me that leaves a big gap in a persons life.

This clearly illustrates what I was just saying. A skeptic sees a gap in knowledge and says "Whee! Look at all the questions that are yet to be answered!" A believer sees that same gap and says "Oh no! I can't have a gap in knowledge! I must fill it with something, even if it is only imaginary."

 

[Paulhoff]

This clearly illustrates what I was just saying. A skeptic sees a gap in knowledge and says "Whee! Look at all the questions that are yet to be answered!" A believer sees that same gap and says "Oh no! I can't have a gap in knowledge! I must fill it with something, even if it is only imaginary."

What I have said many times, but in another way. Just because one does not know something, one does not have to put a so-called god in its place.

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It's wanting faith, because proof is unavailable.

But isn't faith then simply a substitute for knowledge?

It might be.

It might also be the natural result of the inavailability of proof/evidence.

So is doubt.

Proof leads in one direction only.

Proof does away with the question altogether. Proof provides knowledge.

The lack of proof leaves question. That question will result in faith, doubt, or indifference.

Faith can lead you wherever you want to go. I can just as easily have faith in L. Ron Hubbard as faith in Jesus.

Correct.

So?

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
If it's not empty (due to doubt and rejection), what's in it?

The love of my family and friends. Responsibility. Reality. Reason. Rationality. Hope. A sincere concern for my fellow man. The concern that others have toward me (JREF folks helped me buy a car when I was down on my luck) Awe of the universe, art, humanity. A desire to improve the world and to be a decent person who contributes to society. Add to that mix science and a small but growing understanding of the universe and the natural world and you get a very full and good life.

What do all those attributes have to do with either faith or skepticism? None of them are exclusive of either.

Hell, what else could there be? I suppose that I could have faith that there is a giant diamond buried deep in my back yard and that the diamond gives my life meaning and purpose that I couldn't have without the diamond buried in my backyard but that seems to me to be believing in a fairytale unnecessarily.

It would appear to be a fantasy to me, too, however, if you like that fantasy, why don't you get busy with a shovel?

I don't need to have faith in things that are not provable to give my life meaning or fulfillment.

Congratulations.

My faith in spirituality has nothing to do with giving my life meaning or fulfillment. It is the result of consideration and study given to claims by peoples in the past and present, and my own conclusions. It is also the result of my own prayers.

I see no reason to reject spirituality, and plenty of reasons to lend it faith. Then the faith has been nurtured and strengthened with prayer, study, and experience.

 

[Paulhoff]

The lack of proof leaves question. That question will result in faith, doubt, or indifference.

Proof, there is gravity, question are still out on all the details on how it works.

Questions also lead to one finding the answers or knowing that in time the answers may be found, not just the three you give.

Paul

 

[Foster Zygote]

So?

So faith does not lead to truth. One could stumble upon the truth accidentally be employing faith, but it is far more likely that one will simply choose a faith that is pleasing to oneself but that has no basis in reality.

 

[Paulhoff]

So faith does not lead to truth. One could stumble upon the truth accidentally be employing faith, but it is far more likely that one will simply choose a faith that is pleasing to oneself but that has no basis in reality.

BINGO

Paul

 

[Huntster]

Faith is only a substitute for knowledge if you feel you must believe something. Skeptics, when they reach a point where their knowledge is insufficient, are perfectly comfortable with saying "I don't know", and either gathering more knowledge or accepting their ignorance on a particular matter.

How do I differ from that?

The difference between me and what you define as a "skeptic" is that I have ultimately chosen to lend faith to a particular theory regarding the phenomenon, where a denialist rejects it, and a skeptic simply stops movement and awaits more evidence (which is commonly rejected because it isn't "proof").

Non-skeptics, on the other hand, when they reach that point may say "I don't know", as Huntster has done many times, but they feel like they must believe something, so they choose to use faith as a tool for deciding what to believe.

Not necessarily. There are many, many issues or questions which I don't feel are important enough to justify faith. I will remain skeptical about them, because it's not important enough to warrant faith.

My own spirituality is something I feel is too important to play games of doubt with, especially since in the Gospels Christ's predominant theme was "faith."

This in itself is not a terrible thing. Each of us probably has things they were "raised to believe" which are not based on knowledge, but just passed on to us. The difference is, when confronted with these unsupported beliefs, the skeptical attitude is to say, "I should re-examine that belief", while the non-skeptical attitude is to say, "I prefer to believe it even without support".

Correct.

Again, if you want to discuss the existence of chocolate birch trees, I'll ask for evidence or proof, and I will not budge. It's not important to me whether or not chocolate birch trees exist.

My own spirituality?

Sorry. It's important stuff. Christ worked pretty hard trying to teach and nourish faith. It musta' been an important lesson.

I decided to work on it and see.

And, lo, I learned.................

 

[Ossai]

Huntster

It's wanting faith, because proof is unavailable.

Faith, just another word for ignorance.

 

[joobz]

So faith does not lead to truth. One could stumble upon the truth accidentally be employing faith, but it is far more likely that one will simply choose a faith that is pleasing to oneself but that has no basis in reality.

But why does everyone need to be truth driven? It seems to me that many people have no desire for truth and will create any fiction they wish.

I see no problem with self delusion provided they don't try to physically force their delusions on others.