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Buffett: Tax the Rich

I'm a bit confused. Are you retracting your claim in light of this rough calculation that shows it is false?

Saying that it wouldn't work on a practical level is a completely different discussion.



Yes, there are millions of poor people in this country. We don't tax their income, but collect other taxes from them. Is that relevant to your point?

I made no claim, actually. That's why I put, "IIRC".

The rich pay way too much, according to that quote, not too little.

So yes, I'm confused.

I'm only certain that I pay too much, being single and having a nice job. :D

I'm also certain that the government wastes way too much money, and that if I give them more, they will just waste it at a greater rate, and I will still see little effect, except more useless pork projects.

When they have weeded out a lot of the waste, then they can talk about tax rates, imo.

Never going to happen, though. Waste of time to even talk about it.
 
Why should someone making $40k a year pay a higher percentage of taxes than a billionaire?

Risk vs reward perhaps?

If you put your money out there, you are taking a big risk.

Your average Joe takes no such risks.

Also, investments build industry and create jobs.

Your average Joe's paycheck doesn't.

I have no problem paying a higher rate than Warren. He's done much more with his wealth than I have with my paychecks, I think.

I've hired a few people, to be sure, but I'm sure Warren has had a huge effect on industry and people, for the good.

Millionaires often employ a lot of people, who in turn pay income taxes that otherwise would not be there.

I think Buffet's point may be simplistic.

There's more to taxes than just comparing rates.
 
Risk vs reward perhaps?

If you put your money out there, you are taking a big risk.

Your average Joe takes no such risks.

Also, investments build industry and create jobs.

Your average Joe's paycheck doesn't.

I have no problem paying a higher rate than Warren. He's done much more with his wealth than I have with my paychecks, I think.

I've hired a few people, to be sure, but I'm sure Warren has had a huge effect on industry and people, for the good.

Millionaires often employ a lot of people, who in turn pay income taxes that otherwise would not be there.

I think Buffet's point may be simplistic.

There's more to taxes than just comparing rates.

OK, so should we decide tax brackets on the risk and/or value of people's jobs? I think there are many cops and firemen and public school teachers who pay more than 15% income tax, who literally risk their lives at their job, and also are providing crucially valuable services to the country.
 
I made no claim, actually. That's why I put, "IIRC".

Ah, so just a faulty memory, not a baseless claim.

Well, at least now you know the truth. Time well spent.

The rich pay way too much, according to that quote, not too little.

I didn't see that. The rich pay more INCOME TAX than the poor, but isn't that to be expected? It is income tax, not a cigarette tax.

My takeaway, and I think the point of the quote, was that the rich make so much more than the poor.

So yes, I'm confused.

I'm only certain that I pay too much, being single and having a nice job. :D

Is there ay amount that wouldn't be "too much"?

I only ask because you are paying less than anyone in recent history who has earned that much, so I curious for your frame of reference for "too much".

I'm also certain that the government wastes way too much money, and that if I give them more, they will just waste it at a greater rate, and I will still see little effect, except more useless pork projects.

Ah, starve the beast. Doesn't work. See: debt crisis.

Dems: Tax and spend.
Reps: Borrow and spend.

Which do you think will work better long term?

When they have weeded out a lot of the waste, then they can talk about tax rates, imo.

Can't do both at the same time?

Never going to happen, though. Waste of time to even talk about it.

So, where do you see it heading?
 
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I made no claim, actually. That's why I put, "IIRC".

The rich pay way too much, according to that quote, not too little.

Only if you think tax as a percentage is unfair.

If you have 100 apples and I have 10 apples, and we're taxed at 10% of apples, I pay 1 apple, you pay 10 apples.

Do you think it would be fairer if we pay 1 apple each? What if I only have 1 apple?

I'm also certain that the government wastes way too much money, and that if I give them more, they will just waste it at a greater rate, and I will still see little effect, except more useless pork projects.

When they have weeded out a lot of the waste, then they can talk about tax rates, imo.

Never going to happen, though. Waste of time to even talk about it.

Any business/househould/whatever in short-term financial trouble, primarily because revenues have dropped, is going to be in even worse trouble if they decided to only focus on cutting expenses in response.
 
Why should someone making $40k a year pay a higher percentage of taxes than a billionaire?
It's part social engineering, part pandering to the rich.


Capital gains taxes are 15% only if you hold for over a year. If you hold for less than a year, you'll be paying 35% or whatever. The intent is to stabilize the market (fewer trades in and out just to capture fleeting price changes), and to protect the amateur investor from herself. Yes, we can bicker endlessly as to whether it has that effect, and whether such nannyism is warranted, but that's the reason. In general, I support such a scheme, though we could bicker about the flat nature (i.e. why not 25%, say, once you top, say $5MM in gains).

It does not just benefit the uber-wealthy - any person with an investment account benefits. Middle class and up.

On the flip side, I think a lot of middle class are actually getting clobbered a bit due to this law. Most middle class by mutual funds, not individual stocks. Mutual funds (except for a holy few that I'd actually recommend putting money into) live and die by quarterly results, and are endlessly flipping stocks to get their numbers better for the short term. The upshot is a heavy tax burden on the fund holder (with a few exceptions, never, ever, put your money in a mutual fund, unless you like losing money for the ego and job security of a manager)

Books have been written about this - a few posts on JREF aren't going to solve the problem, no matter how much we pat ourselves on the back for being 'skeptical'. The upshot is that the rates are designed to encourage long term investment into America by encouraging people to own and hold businesses. An admittedly unfortunate side effect of that is the truly low taxes somebody like Buffett ends up paying.

As for Buffett writing an extra check to the IRS - he has been directly asked that question on CNBC (I forget by who, probably Becky Quick). His response was that he was entirely willing to do that, if that was the best choice, but that he feels that he is somewhat better at asset allocation to solve social problems than the US Government is. It would be easy to cynically dismiss that, except that he gives away billions every year. He walks the talk.
 
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I have no problem paying a higher rate than Warren. He's done much more with his wealth than I have with my paychecks, I think.

True, Warren has done a lot.

What about me. I saw that Apple took a hit it didn't deserve and bought some shares. Later, it recovered nicely and I sold the shares. I took a risk, but I didn't have any impact on the number of people Apple hired. The stock would have recovered with or without my investment.

Why should I enjoy the glow of Warren's good deeds for my market play?

And really, aren't most capitol gains of this type, investors making plays, rather than the company building Buffet engages in?

Should we differentiate? Would people like Buffet change their strategy, or just their comp plans?

ETA: I like Roger's post better. Damn.
 
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Not that I know of, but he is giving away most of his fortune to charity.

In other words, he has deliberately structured his financial interests in such a way as to avoid paying more in taxes.
 
It's part social engineering, part pandering to the rich.


Capital gains taxes are 15% only if you hold for over a year. If you hold for less than a year, you'll be paying 35% or whatever.

Agreed (though I don't know offhand how much short term CG tax is). But there are many people who are very wealthy who are paying 15% income tax while middle class people pay a higher percentage.
It does not just benefit the uber-wealthy - any person with an investment account benefits. Middle class and up.

Right. But if you make your living as a cop or fireman or teacher or construction worker, and make most or all of your income from payroll, you'll likely be paying far more than 15%.

On the flip side, I think a lot of middle class are actually getting clobbered a bit due to this law. Most middle class by mutual funds, not individual stocks. Mutual funds (except for a holy few that I'd actually recommend putting money into) live and die by quarterly results, and are endlessly flipping stocks to get their numbers better for the short term. The upshot is a heavy tax burden on the fund holder (with a few exceptions, never, ever, put your money in a mutual fund, unless you like losing money for the ego and job security of a manager)

Agreed.
 
I find the personal attacks on Buffet pretty funny, ever since he posted that. The folks have a hard time actually making a case for Buffet being wrong.

I have to say, I'm starting to like Buffet more and more even if he is part of the bourgeoisie.

I would add that what I saw in the discussions about $250k incomes and small business, AMT, and now capital gains rates, is that the drive to "fix the tax code" was rarely about restoring the progressive nature of income taxation. I'm happy to see someone with lots of capitalist power doing the right thing.
 
No, I'm saying that giving to charity has reduced his tax liability.

Giving to charity only reduces your taxable income. Unless he gave so much as to only record poverty level of actual income he wouldn't be at such a low tax rate. And based on his own omission, he had quite a few millions in taxable income.
 
Well, he's planning on giving 99% of his fortune away, so I think it's safe to say that his motive isn't reducing taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/15/news/newsmakers/Warren_Buffett_Pledge_Letter.fortune/index.htm

eta: what's your point in bringing this up?

My point is why give it to charity of you think you aren't giving enough to the government. YOU were the one who brought up his charity giving as an excuse for not writing the bigger check. Again, it is a simple procedure if he really believes he isn't paying enough, to just send the IRS more money. They will take it, no problem.
 
My point is why give it to charity of you think you aren't giving enough to the government. YOU were the one who brought up his charity giving as an excuse for not writing the bigger check. Again, it is a simple procedure if he really believes he isn't paying enough, to just send the IRS more money. They will take it, no problem.
It must be convenient to totally ignore a person's explanation for why they are not doing X, and then criticize them for not doing X.
 
Remember that they are getting taxed on Earnings, not established wealth. The millions/billions that they already have invested in stocks, bonds, CDs, and whatever are untouchable. Only the earnings on that wealth are taxable

That's partly why people who are already very wealthy, like Buffet, or FDR or the Kennedys, for that matter, have no problem jacking up income taxes -- it cuts down on the competition for power.
 

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