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Buffett: Tax the Rich

I don't know why more people in the U.S. aren't furious that many millionaires and billionaires pay 15-18% income tax while working people making $40k a year pay 25%. To establish and continue the Bush tax cuts during war time and economic strife is deplorable.

It looks just as bizarre to outsiders also. It's almost as if the entire population of the US is brainwashed into being ultra-right-wing without realising it.
 
There's some genuine disagreement over Buffet's claims about tax rates as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2011/08/15/the-real-reason-warren-buffetts-taxes-are-low/

As one commenter pointed out, here's a quote from Buffet's article:

“Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.”
It's a fact, according to the IRS, that long term capital gains tax is 15%. So if you make a million bucks from capital gains, you pay 15% in federal income tax. If you make a couple hundred thousand a year from a payroll job, you pay a much higher percentage. Does anyone dispute that?
 
OK, again, no one (that I know of) is saying that changing this will solve all of our economic woes. But when you say it wouldn't actually do much of anything, I disagree. If multi-millionaires and billionaires who make their income from long term capital gains had their taxes raised from 15-18% to something like 35%.

Again, I'm not saying that would solve all our problems, that's not Buffet's point, and not mine. The point is that it makes no sense for Buffet to pay a lower tax bracket than his secretary.

eta:

Regarding Buffet getting attention: from what I've read about him he doesn't seem like the type to be making pronouncements just to get in the spotlight. You don't think he has a worthwhile point?

I'm really kind of stunned that so many on this thread are so quick to dismiss this.

I'm kind of stunned too...

Won't the rich just move to get around the tax the moment you announce that you are doubling it?

They certainly aren't going to pay the tax if they can avoid it, and they are in the best position to get around a doubling of a tax.
 
It looks just as bizarre to outsiders also. It's almost as if the entire population of the US is brainwashed into being ultra-right-wing without realising it.

I think that is Buffet's real point: Taxes are very low for the very wealthy and any hysteria to the contrary is manufactured.
 
As one commenter pointed out, here's a quote from Buffet's article:

It's a fact, according to the IRS, that long term capital gains tax is 15%. So if you make a million bucks from capital gains, you pay 15% in federal income tax. If you make a couple hundred thousand a year from a payroll job, you pay a much higher percentage. Does anyone dispute that?

If he hadn't sold, what would his rate have been?
 
I'm kind of stunned too...

Won't the rich just move to get around the tax the moment you announce that you are doubling it?

They certainly aren't going to pay the tax if they can avoid it, and they are in the best position to get around a doubling of a tax.

Yes, I imagine Buffet and Murdock and Gates will be quite happy to leave their home countries to avoid taxation.

Now, where can they move to that will provide a similar platform for them to continue making money and yet not tax that income? Somalia?
 
I'm kind of stunned too...

Won't the rich just move to get around the tax the moment you announce that you are doubling it?

They certainly aren't going to pay the tax if they can avoid it, and they are in the best position to get around a doubling of a tax.

Maybe, but you have to look at the marginal costs. To the uber-wealthy saving a few million in tax may not be worth the effort. Different states in the US have different tax rates, everyone hasn't moved to the lowest taxed state have they?
 
Yes, I imagine Buffet and Murdock and Gates will be quite happy to leave their home countries to avoid taxation.

Murdoch in fact moved to a country with higher corporate tax because it made business sense. I don't think income tax comes in to play at all.

I doubt Buffet or Gates is going to move from their homes, a major lifestyle disruption, in order to avoid paying extra tax which will have no discernible affect on their lifestyles.
 
Is this true?

Tax foundation says top 5% earn 34.7% of the countries gross income.

Nation Master says US gross income is $9.78 trillion

34.7%*$9.8 trillion=$3.4 trillion.

That would more than wipe out the deficit, and pay off the debt in less than a decade.

Once you've taken all of my income this year, what am I living on? :D

It also says this:

Another indicator of this reversal in the income and tax shares of the top 1 percent is that during 2007, the top 1 percent had actually paid more in federal income tax than the bottom 95 percent, a comparison that was much remarked on a year ago. But the diminished income of the top 1 percent in 2008 means that the comparison no longer holds. During 2008, the bottom 95 percent (AGI under $159,619) paid 41.3 percent of the total collected, a larger share than the 38.0 percent paid by the top 1 percent (AGI over $380,354).

The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $159,619), however, still paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 34.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes.
 
Ummm... just out of curiosity, do you have any proof that "many millionaires pay 15% tax"? Is this a common thing, or are you talking about special cases? Is this a "one time occurrence", or do they regularly pay such small amounts?

Income from investments is taxed as capital gains, which has tax rates far lower than income earned from employment.
 
I'm kind of stunned too...

Won't the rich just move to get around the tax the moment you announce that you are doubling it?

They certainly aren't going to pay the tax if they can avoid it, and they are in the best position to get around a doubling of a tax.

Move to another country? I kind of doubt it, but maybe. I agree that many of them would try to avoid paying it if their tax was raised (but presumably not Buffet). Income tax in the U.S. is at a historic low. As Buffet pointed out in his NYT article, when income taxes were much higher for the wealthy, they continued to invest.

I've yet to hear a convincing argument on this thread to defend billionaires in a 15% tax bracket while working people making far less pay 25 to 35%. Maybe working middle class people in the U.S. will start moving to countries with a lower income disparity.
 
I'm glad Eddie Dane called attention to this! Great statement by a wise American.

I think what US industry is good at producing is what Middle people consume and use. Houses appliances infrastructure (roads bridges utility grids) agriculture healthcare education etc. What makes jobs is basically Middle demand for what American can produce.

So steeply graduated income tax helps produce a vibrant economy by enabling more of that broad Middler demand.

Businesses, unless they see broad consumer demand, will not invest to produce jobs. they will sit on cash or take it abroad or pay it out to stockholders. So sharp inequality of income leads to a weakened economy and hobbles recovery.

Economists have been warning of this for several years now. Some leveling of income is good economic policy. Ultimately we all benefit. It is less a moral issue than a practical one.

But some political sectors have gotten away from pragmatism and have become IDEOLOGICAL in their thinking. this could seriously damage the country and it is to his credit that Buffett has spoken out. He makes his argument on MORAL grounds because he is talking to the ideological right. Great statement, why not quote it?
============quote Warren Buffett===============


August 14, 2011
Stop Coddling the Super-Rich
By WARREN E. BUFFETT
Omaha

OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.

While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.

These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.

To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.

Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.

Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.

The taxes I refer to here include only federal income tax, but you can be sure that any payroll tax for the 400 was inconsequential compared to income. In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.)

I know well many of the mega-rich and, by and large, they are very decent people. They love America and appreciate the opportunity this country has given them. Many have joined the Giving Pledge, promising to give most of their wealth to philanthropy. Most wouldn’t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering.

Twelve members of Congress will soon take on the crucial job of rearranging our country’s finances. They’ve been instructed to devise a plan that reduces the 10-year deficit by at least $1.5 trillion. It’s vital, however, that they achieve far more than that. Americans are rapidly losing faith in the ability of Congress to deal with our country’s fiscal problems. Only action that is immediate, real and very substantial will prevent that doubt from morphing into hopelessness. That feeling can create its own reality.

Job one for the 12 is to pare down some future promises that even a rich America can’t fulfill. Big money must be saved here. The 12 should then turn to the issue of revenues. I would leave rates for 99.7 percent of taxpayers unchanged and continue the current 2-percentage-point reduction in the employee contribution to the payroll tax. This cut helps the poor and the middle class, who need every break they can get.

But for those making more than $1 million — there were 236,883 such households in 2009 — I would raise rates immediately on taxable income in excess of $1 million, including, of course, dividends and capital gains. And for those who make $10 million or more — there were 8,274 in 2009 — I would suggest an additional increase in rate.

My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice.

Warren E. Buffett is the chairman and chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway.
==endquote==
 
Once you've taken all of my income this year, what am I living on? :D

I'm a bit confused. Are you retracting your claim in light of this rough calculation that shows it is false?

Saying that it wouldn't work on a practical level is a completely different discussion.

It also says this:

Yes, there are millions of poor people in this country. We don't tax their income, but collect other taxes from them. Is that relevant to your point?
 
Once you've taken all of my income this year, what am I living on? :D

The uber-wealthy have plenty of cash on hand

It also says this:

Which just says that there is an enormous income disparity. I think more up to date data says the rich are now paying a greater percentage of the nation's overall tax revenue. Which means the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting (relatively) poorer.
 

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