Brown peoples land (Egypt)

[SpuriusMaximus]

"Telling brown people what to do" are not my own words. They are yours.

No-one is "telling brown people what to do". Such a childish characterization of the protest is itself racist.

Or, you know, sarcasm. At any rate, as I was saying, then you can address that instead of playing the "OMG, racism!!!" card.

Would you call Egypt "brown peoples land” in the company of Egyptians? If not, why not? Would you not expect them to find it offensive?

So you're back to fighting strawmen made from words taken out of context? You know, not even whole sentences? Maybe I overestimated your ability to make a coherent case about it after all.

The main thrust of the phrase was, basically, "going to tell the brown people what to do in their own land." Egypt was just the place where that happens. That's _why_ it's important to read (and comprehend) whole sentences, as opposed to fishing groups of words out of context to make a fuss about.

DC's reaction was not a "misinterpretation". It was a predictable and understandable reaction to Stout's offensive, faux-racist trolling.

I don't think DC is that predictable, actually, judging by his posting history. In fact, it genuinely came as a surprise to me. He's usually a lot smarter than that. You, on the other hand, are doing exactly the kind of histrionics I expected from you.

"Moneyless shopping", not my invention, was a tongue-in-cheek joke, and a better one than "brown-peoples land". It is a perfectly accurate description for looting, though it is, of course, offensive to those who find all looting offensive, per se.

IOW, of course, only your crap doesn't stink. When you use such an expression, it's of course just a tongue-in-cheek joke, but when someone else uses one, you can't possibly see it any other way than as 4 words which are to be taken literally and without any context needed. Right?

Assassination is one of the skills that the commandos who attacked the Mavi Marmara are trained in.

And you also likely have all the skills needed to be a prostitute, but we don't call you that just because you have the skills. I.e., it's idiotic to do the same word-play about those soldiers.

What makes you think he's "trying so hard"? Do you have psychic powers?

Yet you seem to grant yourself the exact same of psychic powers when you postulate what someone really meant with a phrase taken out of context. Hypocrisy much?

 

[DC]

And, as you of course know, under the doctrines of anti-racism, a POC can't be accused of racism.

Why not?

 

[Cainkane1]

I wouldn't refer to a naturally darker peson as brown, black or brown. I would imagine if you said that to an Egyption or whoever it would be an invitation to get a fist placed upside of your head or worse.

Having said if the occassion ever arose when I had to be in the middle east I would walk around like I was on eggshells and trying not to break them. I would not asociate with a woman or even look at one. I would do strickly business with whomever and then get the hell out. I imagine this level of discomfort is also a type of prejudice.

 

[Stout]

Why not?

Because racism is an action(s) taken my members of the dominant culture or society against members of minority cultures or societies. So were I say, black, and i made that brown peoples land comment i could nullify your charge of racism by declaring myself non-white.

Same same with sexism, a woman can't be considered sexist because (in theory) men dominate and control everything.

You may or may not agree with these definitions but these are what the hard-core activists, including those on the MM and Gaza Freedom march use as their mantra.

 

[DC]

Because racism is an action(s) taken my members of the dominant culture or society against members of minority cultures or societies. So were I say, black, and i made that brown peoples land comment i could nullify your charge of racism by declaring myself non-white.

Same same with sexism, a woman can't be considered sexist because (in theory) men dominate and control everything.

You may or may not agree with these definitions but these are what the hard-core activists, including those on the MM and Gaza Freedom march use as their mantra.

that is so wrong.....

 

[Stout]

I wouldn't refer to a naturally darker peson as brown, black or brown. I would imagine if you said that to an Egyption or whoever it would be an invitation to get a fist placed upside of your head or worse.

Would yo be offended if I were to refer to you as white, assuming you were white, of course ?

The term brown people is a catchall for those who are neither visibly white nor black but the "proper" term to use is person of colour or POC for short.

Except of course if you're referring to Amerinds. Dunno about the USA, but in Canada, they have their own separate designation, first nations, of FN for short.

Want to light a Canadian anti-racism activist of fire, refer to a FN as a POC and watch them go ballistic. Since FN people were here first, they get a special designation, away from the rest of the POC simply because their ancestral lands got invaded and colonised by white people. Everyone else came afterward.

 

[Stout]

that is so wrong.....

Wrong is in factually or wrong is in "ethically" ?

 

[DC]

my problem isn't with "brown people" it is the "land of the brown people" i think it is racist to use it to describe a country. Egyptians are not defined by having a brown skin. They are Egyptians because they are citizens of Egypt and the color of their skin doesn't play a role in that.

But it seems a lot think i have overreacted, maybe i did. but it doesn't change my mind that i find it very offensive to say it the way you did.
You also said, Islam is the religion of brown people, no it is not, it is the Religion of Muslims. also in Islam, your skin color does not natter. it is not one of the criteria you have to fulfill.

 

[DC]

Wrong is in factually or wrong is in "ethically" ?

Both

 

[Stout]

Factually, it is correct, just not all that widely understood. The average anti-racism activist will not accept the wikipedia definition of racism. This was more out in the open, or more popular, so to speak, about 15 years ago and caused many, many people to disagree and walk away from the brave new world that the left was promising it.

As I said above, this isn't the politics of the average everyday "liberal" left, this is a full on ideological freak show and is eerily similar to far right wink freak shows. Birthers anyone ?

Ethically wrong ? I agree and wholeheartedly.

The whole focus of the far left is hating the west, or the people of European descent, who they figure have really screwed up the world in the past 400 years. They hate capitalism preferring instead that the government own pretty much everything and everybody works for the government.

We could easily switch this from a race based discussion to a class based one but it would just be a distraction at this point.

So when I say I think the left likes this fight because they're essentially trying to right what they consider a wrong, which is the colonisation of the America's by Europeans, by fighting on the side of the "indigenous" population ( Palestinians ) against the European, colonisers ( Israelis ) and that their motivations are more of an effort to shuck off the baggage of collective guilt they've burdened themselves with rather than any real concern for the Palestinians themselves, do you understand the point I'm trying to make ?

Then I said that if they were really interested in the welfare of the Palestinians, they'd drop all this who was here first razzle dazzle and take an objective look at the situation with the realisation that the Palestinian people would enjoy a far greater quality of life working with Israel rather than "fighting the good fight" so to speak. Ending the state of belligerency is THE first step toward Palestinian statehood, yet the far-left refuses to acknowledge this. They even refuse to discuss it.

 

[Stout]

my problem isn't with "brown people" it is the "land of the brown people" i think it is racist to use it to describe a country. Egyptians are not defined by having a brown skin. They are Egyptians because they are citizens of Egypt and the color of their skin doesn't play a role in that.

But it seems a lot think i have overreacted, maybe i did. but it doesn't change my mind that i find it very offensive to say it the way you did.
You also said, Islam is the religion of brown people, no it is not, it is the Religion of Muslims. also in Islam, your skin color does not natter. it is not one of the criteria you have to fulfill.

Missed that post.

If I had said the land of POC, would you have known what I meant ?

It's the left that refers to Islam as the brown people's religion, the religion of "the other" in order to characterise any opposition to pretty much anything Muslim as being Islamophobic.

"othering" is a BIG deal with the far left.

Interestingly, both the far left and the far right refuse to make a distinction between normal, average, everyday Islam and radical Islam. They both do it for different reasons though, The far-right does it so they can demonise anything Muslim and the far left does it so they can scream Islamophobia !! at anyone who is critical of radical Islam.

AFIK, the reason Egypt shut it's borders to HAMAS and the population that elected them is because Egypt wants nothing to do with radicals.

 

[Pardalis]

my problem isn't with "brown people" it is the "land of the brown people" i think it is racist to use it to describe a country. Egyptians are not defined by having a brown skin. They are Egyptians because they are citizens of Egypt and the color of their skin doesn't play a role in that.

And we're back at square one. Hasn't it already been explained to you the context in which Stout has used the expression, and the reason why?

it doesn't change my mind that i find it very offensive to say it the way you did.

Of course, you can't change your mind if you choose to disregard everything people have said about it so far.

Why did you start a thread if you are unwilling to listen to what people have to say?

 

[Pardalis]

do you understand the point I'm trying to make ?

I doubt he does, he'll just stick to his original idea because he just wants to be offended.

 

[DC]

Missed that post.

If I had said the land of POC, would you have known what I meant ?

It's the left that refers to Islam as the brown people's religion, the religion of "the other" in order to characterise any opposition to pretty much anything Muslim as being Islamophobic.

"othering" is a BIG deal with the far left.

Interestingly, both the far left and the far right refuse to make a distinction between normal, average, everyday Islam and radical Islam. They both do it for different reasons though, The far-right does it so they can demonise anything Muslim and the far left does it so they can scream Islamophobia !! at anyone who is critical of radical Islam.

AFIK, the reason Egypt shut it's borders to HAMAS and the population that elected them is because Egypt wants nothing to do with radicals.

Now you only need me to show Canadian leftists that call Islam the religion of the brown people, and i am convinced.

 

[Pardalis]

See what I mean?

 

[DC]

See what I mean?

oh cry me a river.
i have never ever heard someone from the left call Islam the Religion of the brown people. So i wonder if that is actually true what he claims.

 

[Pardalis]

do you understand the point I'm trying to make ?

So it's a definite 'no'.

 

[Stout]

Now you only need me to show Canadian leftists that call Islam the religion of the brown people, and i am convinced.

Is this close enough ?

It's Canadian, it's freakshow left, it merges the ideas of skin colour and religion and bonus !! it's written by a SNAG whose all uptight about the skin colour he was born with.

Then root around at that site for awhile, click on the tab "babble" register an account if you like and see just how far normal, liberal views hold out against left wing extremism.

Well, they don't actually, I've seen literally hundreds of well meaning people get banned from that site for holding "incorrect" opinions. They sure love those MM activists over there though.

 

[JihadJane]

Are your trying to deny that the Gaza freedom marchers were a bunch of white westerners who went to Egypt to tell they were doing it wrong?

Here’s a list people who have signed a statement issued by protesters after they had gone on the White People-Telling-Brown-People-What-To-Do adventure holiday, in brown persons land.

Which ones are white?


1. Hedy Epstein, Holocaust Survivor/ Women in Black*, USA
2. Nomthandazo Sikiti, Nehawu, Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU), Affiliate International Officer*, South Africa
3. Zico Tamela, Satawu, Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) Affiliate International Officer*, South Africa
4. Hlokoza Motau, Numsa, Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) Affiliate International Officer*, South Africa
5. George Mahlangu, Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) Campaigns Coordinator*, South Africa
6. Crystal Dicks, Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) Education Secretary*, South Africa
7. Savera Kalideen, SA Palestinian Solidarity Committee*, South Africa
8. Suzanne Hotz, SA Palestinian Solidarity Group*, South Africa
9. Shehnaaz Wadee, SA Palestinian Solidarity Alliance*, South Africa
10. Haroon Wadee, SA Palestinian Solidarity Alliance*, South Africa
11. Sayeed Dhansey, South Africa
12. Faiza Desai, SA Palestinian Solidarity Alliance*, South Africa
13. Ali Abunimah, Electronic Intifada*, USA
14. Hilary Minch, Ireland Palestine Solidarity Committee*, Ireland
15. Anthony Loewenstein, Australia
16. Sam Perlo-Freeman, United Kingdom
17. Julie Moentk, Pax Christi*, USA
18. Ulf Fogelström, Sweden
19. Ann Polivka, Chico Peace and Justice Center*, USA
20. Mark Johnson, Fellowship of Reconciliation*, USA
21. Elfi Padovan, Munich Peace Committee*/Die Linke*, Germany
22. Elizabeth Barger, Peace Roots Alliance*/Plenty I*, USA
23. Sarah Roche-Mahdi, CodePink*, USA
24. Svetlana Gesheva-Anar, Bulgaria
25. Cristina Ruiz Cortina, Al Quds-Malaga*, Spain
26. Rachel Wyon, Boston Gaza Freedom March*, USA
27. Mary Hughes-Thompson, Women in Black*, USA
28. David Letwin, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN)*, USA
29. Jean Athey, Peace Action Montgomery*, USA
30. Gael Murphy, Gaza Freedom March*/CodePink*, USA
31. Thomas McAfee, Journalist/PC*, USA
32. Jean Louis Faure, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN)*, France
33. Timothy A King, Christians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East*, USA
34. Gail Chalbi, Palestine/Israel Justice Project of the Minnesota United Methodist Church*, USA
35. Ouahib Chalbi, Palestine/Israel Justice Project of the Minnesota United Methodist Church*, USA
36. Greg Dropkin, Liverpool Friends of Palestine*, England
37. Felice Gelman, Wespac Peace and Justice New York*/Gaza Freedom March*, USA
38. Ron Witton, Australian Academic Union*, Australia
39. Hayley Wallace, Palestine Solidarity Committee*, USA
40. Norma Turner, Manchester Palestine Solidarity Campaign*, England
41. Paula Abrams-Hourani, Women in Black (Vienna)*/ Jewish Voice for Just Peace in the Middle East*, Austria
42. Mateo Bernal, Industrial Workers of the World*, USA
43. Mary Mattieu, Collectif Urgence Palestine*, Switzerland
44. Agneta Zuppinger, Collectif Urgence Palestine*, Switzerland
45. Ashley Annis, People for Peace*, Canada
46. Peige Desgarlois, People for Peace*, Canada
47. Hannah Carter, Canadian Friends of Sabeel*, Canada
48. Laura Ashfield, Canadian Friends of Sabeel*, Canada
49. Iman Ghazal, People for Peace*, Canada
50. Filsam Farah, People for Peace*, Canada
51. Awa Allin, People for Peace*, Canada
52. Cleopatra McGovern, USA
53. Miranda Collet, Spain
54. Alison Phillips, Scotland
55. Nicholas Abramson, Middle East Crisis Response Network*/Jews Say No*, USA
56. Tarak Kauff, Middle East Crisis Response Network*/Veterans for Peace*, USA
57. Jesse Meisler-Abramson, USA
58. Hope Mariposa, USA
59. Ivesa Lübben. Bremer Netzwerk fur Gerechten Frieden in Nahost*, Germany
60. Sheila Finan, Mid-Hudson Council MERC*, USA
61. Joanne Lingle, Christians for Peace and Justice in the Middle East (CPJME)*, USA
62. Barbara Lubin, Middle East Children’s Alliance*, USA
63. Josie Shields-Stromsness, Middle East Children’s Alliance*, USA
64. Anna Keuchen, Germany
65. Judith Mahoney Pasternak, WRL* and Indypendent*, USA
66. Ellen Davidson, New York City Indymedia*, WRL*, Indypendent*, USA
67. Ina Kelleher, USA
68. Lee Gargagliano, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (Chicago)*, USA
69. Brad Taylor, OUT-FM*, USA
70. Helga Mankovitz, SPHR (Queen’s University)*, Canada
71. Mick Napier, Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign*, Scotland
72. Agnes Kueng, Paso Basel*, Switzerland
73. Anne Paxton, Voices of Palestine*, USA
74. Leila El Abtah, The Netherlands
75. Richard, Van der Wouden, The Netherlands
76. Rafiq A. Firis, P.K.R.*/Isra*, The Netherlands
77. Sandra Tamari, USA
78. Alice Azzouzi, Way to Jerusalem*, USA
79. J’Ann Schoonmaker Allen, USA
80. Ruth F. Hooke, Episcopalian Peace Fellowship*, USA
81. Jean E. Lee, Holy Land Awareness Action Task Group of United Church of Canada*, Canada
82. Delphine de Boutray, Association Thèâtre Cine*, France
83. Sylvia Schwarz, USA
84. Alexandra Safi, Germany
85. Abdullah Anar, Green Party – Turkey*, Turkey
86. Ted Auerbach, USA
87. Martha Hennessy, Catholic Worker*, USA
88. Louis Ultale, Interfaile Pace e Bene*, USA
89. Leila Zand, Fellowship of Reconciliation*, USA
90. Emma Grigore, CodePink*, USA
91. Sammer Abdelela, New York Community of Muslim Progressives*, USA
92. Sharat G. Lin, San Jose Peace and Justice Center*, USA
93. Katherine E. Sheetz, Free Gaza*, USA
94. Steve Greaves, Free Gaza*, USA
95. Trevor Baumgartner, Free Gaza*, USA
96. Hanan Tabbara, USA
97. Marina Barakatt, CodePink*, USA
98. Keren Bariyov, USA
99. Ursula Sagmeister, Women in Black – Vienna*, Austria
100. Ann Cunningham, Australia
101. Bill Perry, Delaware Valley Veterans for Peace*, USA
102. Terry Perry, Delaware Valley Veterans for Peace*, USA
103. Athena Viscusi, USA
104. Marco Viscusi, USA
105. Paki Wieland, Northampton Committee*, USA
106. Manijeh Saba, New York / New Jersey, USA
107. Ellen Graves, USA
108. Zoë Lawlor, Ireland – Palestine Solidarity Campaign*, Ireland
109. Miguel García Grassot, Al Quds – Málaga*, Spain
110. Ana Mamora Romero, ASPA-Asociacion Andaluza Solidaridad y Paz*, Spain
111. Ehab Lotayef, CJPP Canada*, Canada
112. David Heap, London Anti-War*, Canada
113. Adie Mormech, Free Gaza* / Action Palestine*, England
114. Aimee Shalan, UK
115. Liliane Cordova, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN)*, Spain
116. Priscilla Lynch, USA
117. Jenna Bitar, USA
118. Deborah Mardon, USA
119. Becky Thompson, USA
120. Diane Hereford, USA
121. David Heap, People for Peace London*, Canada
122. Donah Abdulla, Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights*, Canada
123. Wendy Goldsmith, People for Peace London*, Canada
124. Abdu Mihirig, Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights-UBC*, Canada
125. Saldibastami, Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights-UBC*, Canada
126. Abdenahmane Bouaffad, CMF*, France
127. Feroze Mithiborwala, Awami Bharat*, India
128. John Dear, Pax Christi*, USA
129. Ziyaad Lunat, Portugal
130. Michael Letwin, New York City Labor Against the War (NYCLAW)
131. Labor For Palestine

(* Affiliation for identification purposes only.)

 

[Stout]

Which ones are white?

I dunno, why don't you try posting their pictures