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Brotherly Love, Afghanistan Style`

gumboot

lorcutus.tolere
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
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I came across this rather disturbing article on our local news; believe it or not it's worse than it sounds.

Unborn baby cut from Afghani rape victim

KABUL, Afghanistan - The 14-year-old Afghan rape victim told the doctor that her brother took her to a cowshed, where he and her mother held her down as he cut out her 5-month foetus with a razor blade, then stitched up the wound with string.

...

The girl was in critical condition at Bagram Air Base outside Kabul, where she was flown the night before after developing a dangerous infection, said Capt. Elizabeth Mathias, a spokeswoman for US forces in Afghanistan.

The 20-year-old brother was arrested and said in an interview from his jail cell that he was trying to shield the family from public scorn.

Classy. :rolleyes: If anyone needs any evidence that Radical Islam is a sickness that needs to be eradicated immediately, here it is.
 
I suppose you could justify this kind of behavior by taking selected quotes out of the Bible, too, if you looked hard enough. Exodus 22:18 says, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

The problem is not whether a religion condones or encourages this kind of behavior, but how many people cite their religion as their defense of the behavior, and what their government's attitude is towards that defense.

You don't hear of too many Christians or Jews killing people today and citing Exodus in their defense - and I suspect when it does happen, the killer's lawyer starts working up an insanity plea.

But honor killings of Muslim girls who've been raped, with the defense that Islam demands it, seem to be a routine occurence.

The issue isn't whether Islam excuses barbarity more than or less than does the Bible. The issue is why Muslim states punish a person only lightly, if at to all, for acts of barbarity committed in the name of Islam, while western states treat the "my religion demands it" argument as no defense at all in such crimes.
 
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Gumboot,

Is this religion, or culture? If it's religion, is it just Islam?
http://www.hindu.com/2004/01/13/stories/2004011305091200.htm


What's the difference? And no, it's not just Islam.

Although, it's funny you bring that up. I'm reading God's Terrorist at the moment, which is a history of the Wahhabi Cult. It traces its origins to that rather unfriendly region where Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India meet, in the 17th Century. In all likelihood, that sort of attitude in India is a result of the influence of Wahhabi, not a traditional part of Indian culture - bear in mind the Indians were a fairly sophisticated Civilisation until the British turned up. In your article, the worst affected areas, which are cited, are where this extreme harsh interpretation of Islam set its roots (in the 18th and 19th Century Lucknow, for example, was the largest Muslim city in India). Note from your article:

A large number of caste fatwas are being issued every year by the dominant castes in the country against inter-caste marriages.

A "fatwa" is a religious opinion on Islamic Law; that suggests these honour killings in India are being carried out by Muslims.

Anyway, it's all somewhat irrelevant. These particular people were Conservative Muslims, and a harsh form of Islam has been present in their culture for over 200 years. Isolating "culture" from "religion" in this circumstance is an exercise in futility.
 
Note from your article:

A large number of caste fatwas are being issued every year by the dominant castes in the country against inter-caste marriages.

A "fatwa" is a religious opinion on Islamic Law; that suggests these honour killings in India are being carried out by Muslims.
Whereas "caste" is a Hindu concept, and not found in Islam anywhere else.

Anyway, it's all somewhat irrelevant. These particular people were Conservative Muslims, and a harsh form of Islam has been present in their culture for over 200 years. Isolating "culture" from "religion" in this circumstance is an exercise in futility.
Yes and no. When trying to outroot such a practice, it may very well be beneficial to point out to them that caste fatwa's are not supported by Islam's core teachings, and that you can be against the caste system without going against their religion.
 
What makes you think this has anything to do with "Radical Islam" as opposed to age-old cultural prejudices?
 
Whereas "caste" is a Hindu concept, and not found in Islam anywhere else.

The word itself originates from the Iberian word casta, used in Spanish and Portuguese (and other Iberian languages) to describe the caste system that had existed in Medieval Europe for centuries. It was first used as "caste" in English in the mid 16th Century, and first applied to India by Europeans in the 17th Century; the original Indian systems were called Varna and Jati.

Caste systems exist all over the world, in every continent, including in Islam. The 14th Century Turkish Islamic Scholar Ziauddin Barani was a big proponent of caste systems in Islam. Pakistan is a good example of a modern Islamic state with a strong caste system.

The current Indian caste system, which is a confused mixture of Varna and Jati, was constructed by the British in the 19th Century, well after the Wahabbists had established themselves amongst the Pathan of Kashmir and the Punjab.


Yes and no. When trying to outroot such a practice, it may very well be beneficial to point out to them that caste fatwa's are not supported by Islam's core teachings, and that you can be against the caste system without going against their religion.

Except the caste system is a very strong part of their religion. Indeed, the lowest caste are the Arzal; Muslims who are anti the caste system. Other Muslims are forbidden from associating with them, they are prohibited from entering a Mosque or using the public burial grounds, and they are only allowed to do the most menial tasks.

Had the caste system been this new thing which Indian and Pakistani Muslims first discovered recently, it might work, however it has been a basic part of their culture for centuries.

You'd have about as much luck stopping Islamic Terrorists by pointing out that the Qu'ran says killing is bad.
 
What makes you think this has anything to do with "Radical Islam" as opposed to age-old cultural prejudices?

Well mainly the fact that Muslims in India developed the harsh unforgiving culture present in NW India, Pakistan and Afghanistan under the inspiration of Syed Ahmed who reacted against Sufism and instead imported Wahhabi Islamic beliefs.

This sort of thing isn't unheard of in other cultures, of course, but the practise of honour killings is particularly widespread in Arab culture, and through Arab culture, into fundamentalist Islam.
 
The current Indian caste system, which is a confused mixture of Varna and Jati, was constructed by the British in the 19th Century, well after the Wahabbists had established themselves amongst the Pathan of Kashmir and the Punjab.

My history of the region is a bit vague, but I was under the impression that the Wahhabi were mostly restricted to the Arabian peninsula, where (with the Saudis) they waged near-constant war against the Ottomans (eventually being defeated by Mehmet Ali), and other Arabian tribes (losing to the Rashidis) before finally getting their way in the early of the 20th Century.

How and when did they spread to Afghanistan?
 
My history of the region is a bit vague, but I was under the impression that the Wahhabi were mostly restricted to the Arabian peninsula, where (with the Saudis) they waged near-constant war against the Ottomans (eventually being defeated by Mehmet Ali), and other Arabian tribes (losing to the Rashidis) before finally getting their way in the early of the 20th Century.

How and when did they spread to Afghanistan?


The Egyptians defeated the Wahhabi in battle in 1815, and finally defeated their final stronghold of Riyadh in 1818, but in about 1821 they were beginning to reemerge under the leadership of Turki Ibn Saud.

Several notable figures brought Wahhabi, in various forms, into the Pathan territories and India.

The earliest was Ghulam Rasul, who was studying the Hadith in Arabia shortly after the turn of the 19th Century, in the Wahhabi heartland. When he returned to Benares he began preaching a radical version of Islam that offended Muslims in India - Wahhabi.

Another - a Bengali named Shariatullah - was living in the Hijaz (the region of Arabia containing the holy cities) at the same time, and was there when the Wahhabi took Mecca in 1805. He only left Arabia after the fall of Riyadh in 1818. When he returned to Bengali he preached a diluted version of Wahhabi.

Most significant was Syed Ahmed who arrived in Arabia on the hajj (pilgrimage) with about 400 followers in about 1821. This was after the fall of Riyadh, but during a time when the Wahhabi were rebuilding. He remained for a few years and eventually returned to India in about 1821 finding the region of Hindustan now firmly under British rule. His Islamic preachings quickly found favour with local Muslims and he soon created a jihad movement and traveled into Afghanistan.

His teaching was that British rule of India had turned it into "Dar ul-Harb" (Domain of Enmity") and that he and his Wahhabis would establish a "Dar ul-Islam" (Domain of Islam) in Afghanistan and use it to unleash jihad upon Dar ul-Harb", reflecting the Prophet's movement from Mecca to Medina. Jihad can only be launched from Dar ul-Islam hence their movement into Afghanistan. They lauched their jihad against the Sikhs which was initially successful, but then crushed. A decade later the movement was revived, and another unsuccessful campaign was launched out of Afghanistan. Finally a third movement established itself in a much more sophisticated and covert way in India, building complex networks across the country and using code to communicate. A sophisticated propaganda machine was put in place. This movement took part (and was crucial in creating) the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857. The British identified the Wahhabi as the central figures in the Mutiny, such that in Delhi they were executed on sight, and virtually all Muslims were killed.
 
I came across this rather disturbing article on our local news; believe it or not it's worse than it sounds.

Unborn baby cut from Afghani rape victim

Classy. :rolleyes: If anyone needs any evidence that Radical Islam is a sickness that needs to be eradicated immediately, here it is.

We do not need isolated, stupid cases like the above to be concerned with Islamic extremists! In fact, that news report shows no indication of the case in any way being connected in any way with Islamic extremism! So, what is the point?

In the Phillipines, Christians volunteers are each year nailed through their hands on the cross in pennence. Religions can do strange things, but the above has nothing to do with religion.

I think people are filled with terror of "terrorists." Why so much fear? The highway death toll each month in this country makes the # of 9/11 victims look puny. I personally think it is cowardly to have such fear.
 
We do not need isolated, stupid cases like the above to be concerned with Islamic extremists! In fact, that news report shows no indication of the case in any way being connected in any way with Islamic extremism! So, what is the point?

In the Phillipines, Christians volunteers are each year nailed through their hands on the cross in pennence. Religions can do strange things, but the above has nothing to do with religion.

I think people are filled with terror of "terrorists." Why so much fear? The highway death toll each month in this country makes the # of 9/11 victims look puny. I personally think it is cowardly to have such fear.

I agree with you on the terror of terrorists thing - we've wasted way more time and money and really hurt the airline business over it. On the other hand, I fully support killing/ torturing all terrorists and all people who act like the mo/bro in the OP and the thing that raped the girl involved.

There is no honor in those killings/actions.

OTOH also I have no problems with Xtians, etc. mutilating themselves for their religion - as long as the leave the rational alone.
 
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This sort of thing isn't unheard of in other cultures, of course, but the practise of honour killings is particularly widespread in Arab culture, and through Arab culture, into fundamentalist Islam.

I'm not a defender of Islam by any means; but this statement ignores the fact that honour killing was endemic to Arab culture prior to the birth of Mohammad and the inception of Islam. Much of pagan Arab and Persian culture was incorporated into Islam.
 
I came across this rather disturbing article on our local news; believe it or not it's worse than it sounds.

Unborn baby cut from Afghani rape victim



Classy. :rolleyes: If anyone needs any evidence that Radical Islam is a sickness that needs to be eradicated immediately, here it is.

I completely agree with your analysis, Gumboot. There remains only the practical problem.

General Sir Charles Napier said:
You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: When men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks, and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.

I find custom and tradition to be a very weak reed upon which to place any argument, from Japanese turtle shell carvers to American Indian burial rights for 9000 year old ancestors. Unfortunately, Sir Napier's day is not ours.
 
I think people are filled with terror of "terrorists." Why so much fear? The highway death toll each month in this country makes the # of 9/11 victims look puny. I personally think it is cowardly to have such fear.


This thread has nothing to do with fear and nothing at all to do with terrorism. Go start your own thread.
 
Well mainly the fact that Muslims in India developed the harsh unforgiving culture present in NW India, Pakistan and Afghanistan under the inspiration of Syed Ahmed who reacted against Sufism and instead imported Wahhabi Islamic beliefs.

This sort of thing isn't unheard of in other cultures, of course, but the practise of honour killings is particularly widespread in Arab culture, and through Arab culture, into fundamentalist Islam.

I'm not a defender of Islam by any means; but this statement ignores the fact that honour killing was endemic to Arab culture prior to the birth of Mohammad and the inception of Islam. Much of pagan Arab and Persian culture was incorporated into Islam.

gumboot's statement says exactly that:
It is widespread in Arab culture, and through that, is became a part ofi Islamic culture.
Think, and read, before you jump salty sometime, please? Makes you look a hell of a lot smarter
 
I think people are filled with terror of "terrorists." Why so much fear? The highway death toll each month in this country makes the # of 9/11 victims look puny. I personally think it is cowardly to have such fear.

Well, I work in Manhattan. I got a cold chill when I heard that a passenger jet had crashed into the Hudson. I still think about dirty bombs, and how vulnerable the tunnels and bridges are.

Then again, I also worry about car accidents.

Move up here and then we can discuss cowardly.
 
Well, I work in Manhattan. I got a cold chill when I heard that a passenger jet had crashed into the Hudson. I still think about dirty bombs, and how vulnerable the tunnels and bridges are.

Then again, I also worry about car accidents.

Move up here and then we can discuss cowardly.

Well, yes, I am at fault for not realizing the word "cowardly" would be taken personally.

I have to acknowledge that the people of Israel and of Palestine both have to handle a lot more fear than we do. We seem obsessed with it here. That seems to explain why we have so many guns in the population, and why we have so many people in prisons. I also think of the wars we have started in which tens if not hundreds of thousands of people have died because we were angry and afraid both after 9/11.
 

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