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British Chiropractic Association v Simon Singh

It strikes me that an acknowledged expert in statistics and the design of medical tests should be brought to court as this case proceeds. Perhaps Dr Singh should suggest the BCA propose someone?
 
It seems my fractured knowledge of the subject could be summed up in an analogy:

Volvo release a new range of cars with an "improved" braking system.
It turns out the new system is no better, or even worse than previous ones.
A motor journalist states publically that Volvo's claim was 'bogus' and Volvo start libel proceedings.
Volvo wins as long as they did no research at all to substantiate their claim. The claim was ignorant but not 'bogus'.

Couldn't "a reasonable person" fully expect that Volvo would investigate thoroughly before making such a claim?

Apologies if I'm wide of the mark ... new to this subject.
 
What really annoys me is how the hell have these jokers been allowed to get away with his for so long, how have our Governments allowed them to become "legitimate" practitioners. Disgusting, it truly is.


Rant over!

Has anyone been able to show what a Vertebral subluxation looks like and can the spine be manipulated as they say? Have any neurosurgeons expressed opinions about this this bunch.
 
Delscottio said:
What really annoys me is how the hell have these jokers been allowed to get away with his for so long, how have our Governments allowed them to become "legitimate" practitioners. Disgusting, it truly is.
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I imagine they donate to the right campaign funds. That's how it worked for herbal medicines in the US.
 
The latest blogging...

The BCA's Worst Day
http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/06/bcas-worst-day-yet.html

British Chiropractic Association (BCA) demonstrate what evidence-based medicine isn’t
http://holfordwatch.info/2009/06/18...emonstrate-what-evidence-based-medicine-isnt/

British Chiropractic Association and The Plethora of Evidence for Paediatric Asthma
http://evidencematters.org/2009/06/...e-plethora-of-evidence-for-paediatric-asthma/

Careful, BCA, you might slip a disk!
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/18/careful-bca-you-might-slip-a-disk/
 
GlennB said:
Volvo release a new range of cars with an "improved" braking system.
It turns out the new system is no better, or even worse than previous ones.
A motor journalist states publically that Volvo's claim was 'bogus' and Volvo start libel proceedings.
Volvo wins as long as they did no research at all to substantiate their claim. The claim was ignorant but not 'bogus'.
Click to expand...


No, it's fine as long as, in the personal experience of the salesman, the brakes seem to perform better and the buyer values the fact that they seem to perform better.

BJ
 
Very painful commehnt from Jack

Their [BCA] least bad outcome would be to drop the case now, relying on their "vindication" at the preliminary hearing, and suffering the current ridicule.
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I think the BCA are almost fighting for their existence now. How can anyone now claim they help people who are suffering?
 
rjh01 said:
Very painful commehnt from Jack



I think the BCA are almost fighting for their existence now. How can anyone now claim they help people who are suffering?
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Steady on there, I would bet 90% of Chiro customers haven't a clue aboutt all this.

As long as they remain profitable I doubt many Chiros would want to rock the boat internally and bring the matter to the attention of the mainstream media.
 
Via http://richarddawkins.net/article,3949,n,n#387472
Richard Dawkins on June 13, 2009 at 10:08 pm

Simon Singh is a hero, and should get a knighthood. Please rally around him. Don't just post your comments here, go to the The Times website and register your support for Simon there, too. Also, British readers please write to your MP, to newspapers etc. And please sign your support for the campaign to reform English libel law, and end England's ignominious status as the Libel Tourism Capital of the World.

Richard
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UK chiropractic: regulated but unruly

Edzard Ernst

Since 1994 chiropractic has been regulated by statute in the UK. Despite this air of respectability, a range of important problems continue to bedevil this profession.

Professional organizations of chiropractic and their members make numerous claims which are not supported by sound evidence.

Many chiropractors adhere to concepts which fly in the face of science and most seem to regularly violate important principles of ethical behaviour.

The advice chiropractors give to their clients is often dangerously misleading.

If chiropractic in the UK is to grow into an established health care profession, the General Chiropractic Council and its members should comply with the accepted standards of today's health care.

More...
http://jhsrp.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/14/3/186
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Can anyone get a link to the full text?
 
Rolfe said:
That, unfortunately, was always going to be the case. Simon's text was poorly worded. Even when I first saw it, that was the phrase I thought he was most vulnerable on. You or I might believe that only high-quality double-blinded controlled studies in reputable mainstream journals qualify as "evidence". However the legal profession are not scientists, and going simply on the statement as it stood, it wouldn't be hard to argue that a handful of satisfied individual patients - such as have popped up on some of the blogs extolling their personal chiropractic experiences - counts as "a jot of evidence".

However, if evidence emerges that the BCA as a body was indeed aware of the absence of sound evidence to support their treatments, then I don't see why Simon can't try to defend his article on those grounds, even if that wasn't what he originally meant.

Rolfe.
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Apologies for looping the thread back to yesterday... but surely thing A is only evidence of thing B if, in the absence of thing B, you wouldn't expect to find thing A. If you do a bunch of trials with p=0.05 and one in every twenty shows chiropractic works, they aren't evidence that chiropractic works. If you treat a bunch of people with self limiting conditions and many of them kind of seem to get better, that isn't evidence that your treatment works. The chiropractors evidence isn't evidence in any sense that I understand it. They're sitting, surrounded by black swans, clutching a couple of mangy white ones claiming their evidence that all swans are white.

Surely this is a position that can be defended in court? I mean, if a judge can't understand what evidence is then... well, I'm more than a little dissappointed. Still, if I murder someone in broad daylight in front of witnesses, perhaps being able to produce billions of happy, satisfied people who I haven't murdered will count as evidence that I'm innocent?
 
shuttlt said:
They're sitting, surrounded by black swans, clutching a couple of mangy white ones claiming their evidence that all swans are white.
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No, they're sitting, surrounded by black swans, and grabbing a couple of geese in an effort to show swans are white.
 
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