Bridge collapses in Atlanta

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Reject the weather liars and their self-aggrandizing rhetoric. It's bad enough they sold us "gusty" to replace the perfectly descriptive "variable."
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Don't you have that backwards?

Which term do you think has been around longer to describe that particular condition?

Also, speaking as sailor, "gusty" and "variable" have two and significantly different connotations?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Shade trees and breakers are a LOT different from bridges and buildings, where a failure can kill and inconvenience a lot of people.


A fair point. Which group are you in when it comes to infrastructure--the user, the legislators, or the special interest? If you're a user, how can you tell if the special interest is stating a valid concern or overstating a minor concern? Also, do you have any data (even anecdotes) of an infrastructure special interest group deliberately overstating a minor concern in order to drum up work and bilk the government?

Take an example from public health. There is a noticeable and vocal group constantly complaining that the medical establishment and Big Pharma are overstating a concern in order to beef up their profits: anti-vaxxers. Are you sure you want to go down that road?

My go-to example is firefighting. In 30 years, the absolute number of fires has fallen 50%, but the number of firefighters has grown by 50%. This famously manifests as a firetruck showing up to a bunch of medical calls at greater expense. The firefighting experts are not the best Judges of how much firefighting resources we should have.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Just because it is called the minimum doesn't mean it is actually the minimum right standard.

It is just the excessive overbuilt standard that the industry demanded. Deregulation is the answer.

 

[ponderingturtle]

My go-to example is firefighting. In 30 years, the absolute number of fires has fallen 50%, but the number of firefighters has grown by 50%. This famously manifests as a firetruck showing up to a bunch of medical calls at greater expense. The firefighting experts are not the best Judges of how much firefighting resources we should have.

And ambulances should still all be run out of funeral homes.

Or we stop calling the fire department for those non fire calls like car accidents, water rescues and so on.

 

[ahhell]

Shade trees and breakers are a LOT different from bridges and buildings, where a failure can kill and inconvenience a lot of people.


A fair point. Which group are you in when it comes to infrastructure--the user, the legislators, or the special interest? If you're a user, how can you tell if the special interest is stating a valid concern or overstating a minor concern? Also, do you have any data (even anecdotes) of an infrastructure special interest group deliberately overstating a minor concern in order to drum up work and bilk the government?

Take an example from public health. There is a noticeable and vocal group constantly complaining that the medical establishment and Big Pharma are overstating a concern in order to beef up their profits: anti-vaxxers. Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Private prison operators and prison guard unions have clamored for tough on crime legislation for the last 30 years while crime has gone done steadily for the last 20 years. Aided by the media's if it bleeds it leads coverage.

 

[BobTheCoward]

And ambulances should still all be run out of funeral homes.

Or we stop calling the fire department for those non fire calls like car accidents, water rescues and so on.

It isn't the issue of ambulances. There is a lot of talk about diverting some firefighting dollars to EMT services and smaller vehicles. The issue is the ambulance AND the fire truck going to the same scene.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It isn't the issue of ambulances. There is a lot of talk about diverting some firefighting dollars to EMT services and smaller vehicles. The issue is the ambulance AND the fire truck going to the same scene.

That is very useful. Because it is better than putting more people on the ambulance, while having more people available for lift and carry.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Gee. We had straight-line winds that destroyed houses in the FW/D area, houses built to MINIMUM code. Excessive? Hardly.
The Letter groups develop standards on their own. Governments adopt them, rather than spending excess bucks on doing it themselves.
I personally do not want to get on an airplane that does not meet FAR part 25 minimums, but you're welcome to do so...

The design wind speed in the DFW area is 90mph, per ASCE 7-05. News reports are saying that the storm had wind speeds of up to 90mph. Assuming that there weren't any higher wind speeds, any structural failures were either due to bad engineering or bad construction (or started from things like trees falling on the structure, etc).

 

[Cainkane1]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bridge-collapses-atlanta-freeway-fire-during-rush-hour-n740871




Thanks Trump!

I used to work in that area. At the time there were 150000 people using that expressway every morning and afternoon. Often traffic was so dense especially during a rainstorm that you could only aver 10 mph going home or coming to work.

Now there are 250000 cars in that area and I personally cannot imagine how dense the traffic is and now this happens.

It will take several months to repair the bridge and how people are going to get to work and get home after work is beyond me. I am very familiar with the surface roads in the area and I do not envy those unfortunate folks using those old out dated roads.

Like I said it was bad to began with and now my imagination fails me.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Maybe the racial hurdles to expanding MARTA will be leaped...

 

[Cleon]

Maybe the racial hurdles to expanding MARTA will be leaped...

The trains were packed this morning, and the state government has already been gradually, albeit grudgingly, admitting that the state needs to invest in transit.

So yeah, I'm hoping this will mark a shift from transit as "maybe it would be a good idea" to a priority.

 

[BobTheCoward]

That is very useful. Because it is better than putting more people on the ambulance, while having more people available for lift and carry.

A 10 ton, 45 foot long vehicle sounds like a terrible solution for adding a few people.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A 10 ton, 45 foot long vehicle sounds like a terrible solution for adding a few people.

Not when you have it already for fires and the personnel already. It is cheaper to use an under utilized resource than add more full time personnel to all ambulances.

Of course your efficiency minded mindset does have some historic problems. See the Bronx is Burning for how such cut backs can have certain problems.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/why-the-bronx-really-burned/

 

[ponderingturtle]

I figure we are going to see a new initiative to sell off the interstate system under the idea of infrastructure improvement any day now.

 

[ahhell]

The volunteer fire department in my home town had a solution to this 30 years ago. They just added a pickup truck outfitted with emergency medical equipment to their fleet. All the same personnel but they used a much cheaper tool to respond to the 90% of their calls that didn't involve fire.

It astounds me that the professionals haven't figured that out. We should also cut back the staffing as the regulation of the fire code has made half the nations fire departments redundant.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Not when you have it already for fires and the personnel already.

We would need to crunch the numbers on that versus fuel costs and maintenance. We generally don't trust parties with a vested interest to make that analysis.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The volunteer fire department in my home town had a solution to this 30 years ago. They just added a pickup truck outfitted with emergency medical equipment to their fleet. All the same personnel but they used a much cheaper tool to respond to the 90% of their calls that didn't involve fire.

It astounds me that the professionals haven't figured that out. We should also cut back the staffing as the regulation of the fire code has made half the nations fire departments redundant.

Has it though? That kind of cut did cause a lot of unnecessary destruction in the Bonx 40 years ago.

And rescue vehicals with the tools are not new. It depends on the local situation. Putting rescue tools on an engine will let it respond to rescue calls and fire calls, but having two vehicals means that you can not respond from a rescue to a fire or need extra staffing.

With volunteers it is easier than paid departments as you can often get a lot more people responding than the 2 people on an ambulance and 4 on a truck.

 

[Ziggurat]

Also, do you have any data (even anecdotes) of an infrastructure special interest group deliberately overstating a minor concern in order to drum up work and bilk the government?

Motives are always hard to prove, but this seems relevant:
http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/12/...es-are-terrible-at-predicting-traffic-levels/

"SSTI reviewed every 20-year traffic forecast submitted by state and regional agencies to FHWA since 1999 (these predictions are in a document called the Conditions and Performance Report to Congress). It turns out that the 20-year projections overestimated future traffic volumes in every single year the reports could be compared against data on actual miles driven by Americans."

Check out the graph, it's impressive.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That's why I was complaining. If someone tells you it was windy, and doesn't mention a tornado, is your response, "Hey, they didn't say if the wind was twisty or not, I wonder if it was a tornado?"

No. No one is confused. No one wonders if "windy" really means "tornado." Do not fall for the trick. Reject the weather liars and their self-aggrandizing rhetoric. It's bad enough they sold us "gusty" to replace the perfectly descriptive "variable."

And how about the trend to name, not just hurricanes, but any large weather event?

Can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic.

"Straight line winds" isn't exactly new terminology... but it is probably regional. When I lived in Nebraska, we would get reports of straight line, gusts, and tornado winds, because we experienced all of them at different times of year. Most of the time, we were looking at gusts and (for lack of a better term) "normal" winds. But during tornado season, we got reports of vortices, and tornado winds - winds that have twists to them. During the winter, we would get sustained directional winds - straight-line winds. Most of the "normal winds" that most people get most of the time have some degree of wax and wane to the strength of the wind, and while they may have a prevailing direction, they have some amount of side to side variance as well. They wiggle somewhat.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Just because it is called the minimum doesn't mean it is actually the minimum right standard.

I'm an actuary. Actuaries are associated with several different professional organizations. As a health actuary, my education is handled through the Society of Actuaries. My professional precepts, code of professional conduct, and standards of practice are handled through the American Academy of Actuaries, as is the Actuarial Board of Conduct, which has the power to "disbar" actuaries who aren't meeting the professional standards.

Both the AAA and the SOA get involved in politics on occasion. They were both heavily involved in the development of specific rules for ACA once the half-baked plan was passed. They occasionally get involved in setting regulations about what constitutes actuarial sound practices. Things like how much reserve should an insurance company hold relative to the amount of risk that they're taking on. What's the acceptable amount of capital for a company to hold relative to the obligations of their insurance contracts. Things that are eminently actuarial in nature.

You might view that as lobbying, and think there's some amazing risk that actuaries are gaming the system. But at the end of the day, I challenge you to find someone more qualified to issue that opinion.

I would not trust medical regulations made by politicians, nor by average consumers. Medical regulations should be heavily informed by medical practitioners - preferably by a group of medical practitioners acting in consensus and with respect to a large base of informed knowledge. In other words, a professional association of doctors.

I would not trust engineering regulations made by politicians, nor by average consumers. Engineering regulations should be heavily informed by engineers - preferably by a group of engineers acting in consensus and with respect to a large base of informed knowledge. In other words, a professional association of engineers.

The average person cannot reasonably be expected to have sufficient understanding of engineering concepts to make an informed judgment about engineering requirements. Even if that person is a politician.