Brian Dunning lawsuit

Denver said:
I'm not sure the Skeptoid donation history would be an element of the trial. It also would not be unusual for someone to compartmentalize their income in such a way as to insure, for example, the Skeptoid project is separate and self-funded, as a sort of cost-center of its own.
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True. Doubt an audit would be publically viewable too. Just something I've been musing.
 
Denver said:
I'm not sure the Skeptoid donation history would be an element of the trial. It also would not be unusual for someone to compartmentalize their income in such a way as to insure, for example, the Skeptoid project is separate and self-funded, as a sort of cost-center of its own.
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On the other hand he is a fraudster so we know he doesn't have any scruples about cheating people so I think it would be wise for anyone connected to Skeptoid to try and get the accounts audited.
 
Darat said:
On the other hand he is a fraudster so we know he doesn't have any scruples about cheating people so I think it would be wise for anyone connected to Skeptoid to try and get the accounts audited.
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Also true.
 
Well, ****. Loved his podcast, looked forward to every episode, and learned so much from it. Even donated $10 to the man at one point, which he might have spent on drinks and ice cream for all I know. Then I learn he's a fraudster and a $7 million one to boot.
Don't think I'll listen to Skeptoid podcasts for a while, if ever. Then again, if he's going to serve jail time for fraud there may not be a Skeptoid for much longer anyway.
 
Safe-Keeper said:
Well, ****. Loved his podcast, looked forward to every episode, and learned so much from it. Even donated $10 to the man at one point, which he might have spent on drinks and ice cream for all I know. Then I learn he's a fraudster and a $7 million one to boot.
Don't think I'll listen to Skeptoid podcasts for a while, if ever. Then again, if he's going to serve jail time for fraud there may not be a Skeptoid for much longer anyway.
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He probably actually did. Conside that the donations were meant to basically replace his job.
 
KoihimeNakamura said:
... considering how KS works, icerat's description is pretty well... wrong. It's not begging when you're looking for investment.
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Let's cast a skeptical eye over this, shall we?

Investments are needed to pay for product development and manufacturer. What does he need the investment for?

The book is a collection of his podcasts, all of which are already transcribed.

He uses the free self-publisher Create Space, part of Amazon, for his books. There is no upfront cost and they print each order on demand.

So his "investment" is needed to pay himself or someone to upload the text to Create Space and do some minor editing, create a cover.

In other words, he doesn't need any investment. He can do this himself at no cost but time.

So what do his "investors" get as ROI?

1. For "investing" $10 to $25 you get 2 "ebooks" that are already written plus an ebook version of the new tome.

The kindle versions of the Skeptoid range sell for $5. So for your "investment" of between $10 and $25 you get 3 ebooks that sell for $15 and cost Dunning next to nothing to supply.

Dunning financial investment required $0.00
Dunning's Costs $0.00
Investors' Costs $10 to $25
Retail Price $15

2. For $25 up to $60 you get the ebooks plus a signed copy of the paperback.

I'm unable to find any copies of signed Dunning books for sale, it would appear his signature is thus worthless.

So for $25 to $60 "investment" you get 3 ebooks that sell for $15 plus the new paperback, which based on earlier books will likely retail for $15 to $20 maximum.

As the author Dunning gets the paperbacks for less than $5.

Dunning financial investment required $0.00
Dunning's Costs $5.00
Investors' Costs $25 to $60
Retail Price ~$30

3. For $60 to $100, you get 3 ebooks valued at $15 plus 3 paperbacks.

Dunning financial investment required $0.00
Dunning's Costs $15.00
Investors' Costs $60 to $100
Retail Price ~$60

4. For $100 to $250 get 3 ebooks valued at $15 plus 5 paperbacks valued at approx $15 each.

Dunning financial investment required $0.00
Dunning's Costs $25.00
Investors' Costs $100 to $250
Retail Price ~$90

5. For over $250 you're paying for personal vanity.

Dunning financial investment required $0.00
Dunning's Costs $25.00

There is no investing going on. Dunning is simply taking pre-orders for his new book and selling his old books. In most cases he is doing so for higher than the recommended retail price, and pretty much always for more than they are actually available for.

Now, I don't begrudge Dunning make a profit on his work. That's fine. But don't call this an "investment".

Well ... hey, maybe you think buying his signature is a worthwhile investment. Your choice.
 
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KoihimeNakamura said:
... considering how KS works, icerat's description is pretty well... wrong. It's not begging when you're looking for investment.
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Kickstarter is not a way to raise investments, it is a way to raise funding. kickstarters sometimes offer rewards as incentives, they never offer a a return on an investment.
 
brodski said:
Kickstarter is not a way to raise investments, it is a way to raise funding. kickstarters sometimes offer rewards as incentives, they never offer a a return on an investment.
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Actually it's against kickstarter rules.

Point remains that Dunning requires no funding for this project, since it has no expenses except to pay for his own time.
 
Through everything, I've still listened to every episode, and will probably continue to do so. But to those that listened in the early days, don't you feel a bit duped now? Knowing his history, the first 20 or 30 Skeptoids, he went out of his way to point at that he didn't ask for money (just tell someone about skeptoid), and that it was a fun side hobby for him.

Then, at some point he started asking for the donations, and said he wanted this to become his full-time job. I realize a lot of research goes into some of his shows, but this is the same research most of us would do in our free time. Why does a guy think doing a 12 minute podcast once a week should be a full-time job?

Yes, the more I look at it now, the more I think this was his plan from the beginning. Suck people in by saying "it's a hobby, I don't ask for money." Then eventually trying to make it a full-time job...all while having a half million in the bank.

Like I said, I like the show, but don't have much respect for the man anymore. Unlike some people, I can surely separate the two. It is bothersome, however.
 
DuvalHMFIC said:
Then, at some point he started asking for the donations, and said he wanted this to become his full-time job. I realize a lot of research goes into some of his shows, but this is the same research most of us would do in our free time. Why does a guy think doing a 12 minute podcast once a week should be a full-time job?
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It was about the time he did "Here Be Dragons" or whatever it was called. I thought he was trying to expand the production. And hey, if you can get a 12-minute podcast to be your full-time job, more power to you, you know? The person who does Questionalbe Content, the web comic, does that and makes shirts for a living.

I do, however, feel fairly angry about this. I was thinking of offering to help with paleo/Creationist episodes at one point (lack of gmail account prevented it). That's not going to happen anymore. I'm also not going to go to the site anymore either--there are ads on the site, and I'm sure he's getting revenue from them. His research may be good, but I refuse to give frauds money.
 
icerat said:
Now, I don't begrudge Dunning make a profit on his work. That's fine. But don't call this an "investment".
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Referring to a good you sell as an "investment" is a very common rhetorical device employed by sellers off all kinds of things; I'm not particularly bothered by this.
 
Checkmite said:
Referring to a good you sell as an "investment" is a very common rhetorical device employed by sellers off all kinds of things; I'm not particularly bothered by this.
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but he's not selling anything either. Kickstarter is neither a vehicle for investment nor is it a preorder tool- although people often misrepresent it as both.
 
Checkmite said:
Referring to a good you sell as an "investment" is a very common rhetorical device employed by sellers off all kinds of things; I'm not particularly bothered by this.
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Just to be clear, it was KoihimeNakamura, not Dunning, who referred to the kickstarter payments as an "investment".
 
I don't believe it's just Kickstarter's rules that prevent "investing", I believe it's a federal law. IANAL though, so perhaps I'm mistaken.

That's what Zack Braff said on Howard Stern when confronted about the subject, anyway.
 
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