Brexit: the referendum

Roofgardener said:
Weeeell... Cameron won't be standing for PM again ANYWAY; this referendum is his swan song.

As for a "Brexiter government"; the Conservatives, Labour, and the Liberal Democrats are ALL pro-EU, so even if the electorate "punished" the Conservatives in the next General Election (possibly an early one triggered by a vote of no confidence), then whoever gets in will - in my opinion - continue with the trick of sidelining the referendum vote with procedural trickery.
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If the Conservatives see that the majority of their voters seek to leave the EU, and if in the election you hypothesise the Conservatives are returned with a majority, and the pro-EU faction is sidelined; then in those circumstances a "Brexiter government" would be possible, and it would not need the participation of Lab or Lib Dems to form an administration.

However, I really don't think that, even in England, the Brexit side has the support attributed to it in the rightwing press.
 
Weeeell... PERHAPS, Craig_B. I certainly hope so, but I am not optimistic.
The EU benefits "big business", and the Conservative Party (as an organisation) is beholden to these businesses. (both ideologically, and in terms of narrow self-interest).

As for support; in my own social circle, I don't know ANYONE who supports continued EU membership.
 
Roofgardener said:
Weeeell... PERHAPS, Craig_B. I certainly hope so, but I am not optimistic.
The EU benefits "big business", and the Conservative Party (as an organisation) is beholden to these businesses. (both ideologically, and in terms of narrow self-interest).

As for support; in my own social circle, I don't know ANYONE who supports continued EU membership.
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In my social circle the situation is the opposite. Some of my acquaintances don't much like the EU, but given a choice between Europe and the gang of xenophobes and reactionaries who constitute the Brexit side, they will vote to stay in.

My social circle is in Glasgow, mainly left wing by voting habit, so SNP or Labour at the polling place.
 
Thats logical. Scotland and Wales - broadly speaking - seem to have a "stick it to the English" approach, and would approve of Westminster continuing to lose its powers.

They don't care if THEY suffer, just so long as the English are perceived as suffering MORE. :P

At the same time, the "collectivist" approach of the EU appeals to the left-wing mindset, and the SNP are fervently pro-EU as well.
 
Roofgardener said:
Thats logical. Scotland and Wales - broadly speaking - seem to have a "stick it to the English" approach, and would approve of Westminster continuing to lose its powers.

They don't care if THEY suffer, just so long as the English are perceived as suffering MORE. :P

At the same time, the "collectivist" approach of the EU appeals to the left-wing mindset, and the SNP are fervently pro-EU as well.
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The powers that people here want Westminster to lose are powers over the other countries, and also powers that ought more properly to belong to local agencies, in England and elsewhere, closer to the people. The motive behind such movements is not hostility towards English people. Still less is it a desire to suffer so that English people will suffer more.

To be honest, I think that the people of the UK suffer much less in the EU than they would if the UK government was a gang of Tory xenophobes supported by UKIP.

Could you describe in socio-political terms, your social circle in which hostility to the EU is universal?
 
Me, I'm torn between writing up a nice exhortation for Britain to be the 'Great' it can be, and remember its role and potential, working to be part of and improve a United Europe by using all the best from its historical DNA, and sending that write-up to any UK paper that might publish it... or sniping at everyone in any forum possible to help make Brexit happen soonest. I am that pissed, er, angry about the whole thing.

For me, the cognitive dissonance on this one is heavy. In the end, it is simply hard to let go of esteem long held, and loose the rhetorical dogs. Already started on the USians, given their own New Fascism, so wonder what's keeping me back. (No, not all supporters of Brexit by any means are fascist, but there is that core UKIP. How's that pronounced, by the way: "you keep?")
 
Hlafordlaes said:
Me, I'm torn between writing up a nice exhortation for Britain to be the 'Great' it can be, and remember its role and potential, working to be part of and improve a United Europe by using all the best from its historical DNA, and sending that write-up to any UK paper that might publish it... or sniping at everyone in any forum possible to help make Brexit happen soonest. I am that pissed, er, angry about the whole thing.

For me, the cognitive dissonance on this one is heavy. In the end, it is simply hard to let go of esteem long held, and loose the rhetorical dogs. Already started on the USians, given their own New Fascism, so wonder what's keeping me back. (No, not all supporters of Brexit by any means are fascist, but there is that core UKIP. How's that pronounced, by the way: "you keep?")
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'You Kip'

it used to be pronounced 'Bee En Pee'.
 
theprestige said:
Why the hell does Europe need a government directive on banana bunches? Is the situation really so dire?
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I believe (if it's anything like the cucumber thing) it's to try and ensure that they are packaged in a standardised way that makes the checking of numbers in a batch easier. These things are generally driven by the packaging/transporting/whatever companies. I did look it up re: cucumbers when that was all in the news years and years ago and, frankly (not having anything to do with the things as a business), I really don't want to trawl through that stuff again...it's very very dull.
 
Roofgardener said:
Well, its interesting.... but ultimately irrelevant.

The UK will NOT be leaving the EU, regardless of the outcome of this (non-binding) refferendum.

If the result is to leave, then the current - and subsequent - governments will simply fudge and delay until everybody has forgotten about it. Failing that, they will deliberately create an "exit treaty" that effectively re-binds us to EU law.

Debate all you want. Heck, you can even go and VOTE (if you are eligable), but it won't make a blind bit of difference.
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Funny to think that this should be posted on the very same page where people are calling Boris stupid for the comparison with Hitler. :)
 
Craig B said:
The powers that people here want Westminster to lose are powers over the other countries, and also powers that ought more properly to belong to local agencies, in England and elsewhere, closer to the people. The motive behind such movements is not hostility towards English people. Still less is it a desire to suffer so that English people will suffer more.

To be honest, I think that the people of the UK suffer much less in the EU than they would if the UK government was a gang of Tory xenophobes supported by UKIP.

Could you describe in socio-political terms, your social circle in which hostility to the EU is universal?
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If the desire is for powers 'closer to home', then why is the SNP so keen on the European Union ? Surely that - for all the talk of subsidiarity - would REDUCE the power of the Scots to manage their own affairs ?

In regards the Tories/UKIP; the difference is that we can vote them out if we choose. We can't do that to the European Council or the Parliament or the Commission.

Umm... how do I define the socio-political character of my social circle ? What metrics would you like ?
 
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Roofgardener said:
If the desire is for powers 'closer to home', then why is the SNP so keen on the European Union ? Surely that - for all the talk of subsidiarity - would REDUCE the power of the Scots to manage their own affairs ?
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Membership of the EU doesn't extinguish the sovereignty or abolish the representative legislatures of the member states.
Roofgardener said:
In regards the Tories/UKIP; the difference is that we can vote them out if we choose. We can't do that to the European Council or the Parliament or the Commission.
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The European Parliament is an elected body.
The European Parliament (EP) is the directly elected parliamentary institution of the European Union (EU) ...

It has been directly elected every five years by universal suffrage since 1979.​
Wiki.
Roofgardener said:
Umm... how do I define the socio-political character of my social circle ? What metrics would you like ?
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What metrics did I use, when I volunteered such information?
 
Tolls said:
I believe (if it's anything like the cucumber thing) it's to try and ensure that they are packaged in a standardised way that makes the checking of numbers in a batch easier. These things are generally driven by the packaging/transporting/whatever companies. I did look it up re: cucumbers when that was all in the news years and years ago and, frankly (not having anything to do with the things as a business), I really don't want to trawl through that stuff again...it's very very dull.
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Yes, it all appears to be to do with classifications and labelling aimed at preventing rotten fruit from being sold. Hugely boring and it doesn't affect most people but the exact type of thing the UK would do itself were Europe not doing it. We don't want coloured cod roe sold as caviar or a nasty foreign pork pies sold as Melton Mowbray.
Just think of all the non productive UK jobs that would be created if we left. Could we get some foreigners in to do it I wonder?
 
Craig B said:
The European Parliament is an elected body.
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The Council is also made up of the national leaders, so they can be voted out as well.

And the Commission President is only elected with the consent of Parliament...and the members are chosen by the respective national governments. It is, I will agree, the least democratic bit. But then again, I don't vote for a particular cabinet structure.
 
The EU elected people get to discuss and vote on the proposed directives/laws.

But the new directives and laws that they discuss are ones proposed by unelected bureaucrats.
 
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