Brexit: the referendum

[ceptimus]

other way round parliament decides the intentions and unelected bureaucrats draft them and enforce them

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Legislative procedure of the E.U. begins with proposals from the European Commission - which consists of appointed rather than elected officials.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/legislativeprocedure/default_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

I'm sure the Commission would claim that it's somehow acting in response to informal initiatives from elected politicians - but as I understand it, it's a group of unelected people who get to set the agenda. The graphic from the E.U. itself (see first link above) shows that two banks get to influence the proposals alongside the European Parliament.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

In regards the Tories/UKIP; the difference is that we can vote them out if we choose. We can't do that to the European Council or the Parliament or the Commission.

Funny that. 'We' have been voting the Tories out for decades and they almost always seem to be in power and telling us what to do.

 

[CapelDodger]

Weeeell... Cameron won't be standing for PM again ANYWAY; this referendum is his swan song.

Cameron would like to hand on the torch in his own time, which would not be yet. It will be if the vote is for leaving.

As for a "Brexiter government"; the Conservatives, Labour, and the Liberal Democrats are ALL pro-EU, so even if the electorate "punished" the Conservatives in the next General Election (possibly an early one triggered by a vote of no confidence), then whoever gets in will - in my opinion - continue with the trick of sidelining the referendum vote with procedural trickery.

In British terms the government changes when the Prime Minister changes. So the current Cameron government might be replaced by a Gove or (providence forbid) Johnson government, or an Osborne government if Cameron survives and the current plan stays on track.

The next election is due in 2020, absent a vote of no-confidence, and not really worth speculating on. The Tories may spend the four years at each others throats but they'll all pull together when it comes to keeping a majority government.

One hope is that the Tories will be so wrapped-up in their own affairs that they won't have the time and energy to do more harm in the real world.

 

[CapelDodger]

The powers that people here want Westminster to lose are powers over the other countries, and also powers that ought more properly to belong to local agencies, in England and elsewhere, closer to the people. The motive behind such movements is not hostility towards English people.

Not in the main, no.

Still less is it a desire to suffer so that English people will suffer more.

People do get the strangest ideas, don't they? Especially about the depth of other people's malice.

To be honest, I think that the people of the UK suffer much less in the EU than they would if the UK government was a gang of Tory xenophobes supported by UKIP.

Not a few Brits see the EU as the only constraint on a pack of Tory-boys with half-baked pet theories and a whole country to try them out on.

 

[Lothian]

Are you sure? My understanding is that the Legislative procedure of the E.U. begins with proposals from the European Commission - which consists of appointed rather than elected officials.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/legislativeprocedure/default_en.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

I'm sure the Commission would claim that it's somehow acting in response to informal initiatives from elected politicians - but as I understand it, it's a group of unelected people who get to set the agenda. The graphic from the E.U. itself (see first link above) shows that two banks get to influence the proposals alongside the European Parliament.

It is complicated but the commission is effectively the civil service. I am currently at a meeting and the commission is represented. Their role is to provide assistance to the Member states and offer solutions where there is impasse, They don't have any voting or decision making role.

 

[ComfySlippers]

Bee En Pee - Lite

Every so often Cameron has a good turn of phrase.

"Fruitcakes and loons" for UKIP was one.

There is an episode of "Have I Got News For You" that featured a round called 'Fruitcake or Loon?"
Photos of individual UKIP members were shown and you had to guess if each one was a fruitcake or a loon.

The one and only correct guess came from team member Nigel Farage.

 

[Information Analyst]

And it gives the bureaucrats something to do?

Far less bureauocrats that having every member country draft their own rules and then argue about each others'.

 

[Darat]

Why the hell does Europe need a government directive on banana bunches? Is the situation really so dire?

It's about trade. If I ring up an importer in say France and order 1000kg of class one bananas I know that what I will get will be the same as the order I placed last week with an Italian importer for 1000kg of class one bananas. It's about reducing trade and cost barriers across the EU.

 

[jimbob]

It's about trade. If I ring up an importer in say France and order 1000kg of class one bananas I know that what I will get will be the same as the order I placed last week with an Italian importer for 1000kg of class one bananas. It's about reducing trade and cost barriers across the EU.

Yes - it is an inevitable consequence of standardization and the single market. It makes perfect sense for wholesale bananas to be standardized like this, and not for retail ones (which is indeed the case).


Of course, if we left the EU, we mightn't be affected by that rule but would have to keep our standards aligned for any goods that we did want to trade with the EU. We'd be on a hiding to nothing.

 

[Roofgardener]

It is complicated but the commission is effectively the civil service. I am currently at a meeting and the commission is represented. Their role is to provide assistance to the Member states and offer solutions where there is impasse, They don't have any voting or decision making role.

I don't believe that is accurate, Lothian.

The Commission was 'upgraded' as part of the Lisbon Treaty. It now has the sole power to initiate/propose legislation, although you are correct that it cannot subsequently VOTE on it. (that is down to the Council of the European Union, with oversight by the European Parliament).

If we are to compare institutions, then the Commission is "the Government", with the Council acting as Parliament, and the European Parliament acting as a secondary revising body. (the House of Lords in the UK).

 

[Lothian]

I don't believe that is accurate, Lothian.

The Commission was 'upgraded' as part of the Lisbon Treaty. It now has the sole power to initiate/propose legislation, although you are correct that it cannot subsequently VOTE on it. (that is down to the Council of the European Union, with oversight by the European Parliament).

If we are to compare institutions, then the Commission is "the Government", with the Council acting as Parliament, and the European Parliament acting as a secondary revising body. (the House of Lords in the UK).

You suggest that the commission is effectively the Government. That is not the case.

The commission acts on prompting from meetings like the one I was at which they fund. 28 member states are represented. We all give our views. Where, to achieve our views new laws are needed, the commission will draft them and the counsel will vote for them.

As an example. The meeting I was at wants to exchange some data between Member States. Depending on the computer model chosen the exchange may not come under existing agreements. The commission therefore is drafting new laws that the counsel will vote on. That is because the Member states agreed to share the data not because the commission wants us to share it. If we had not agreed to share data, there would be no new law drafted.

So while technically the commission drafts laws it is not generally the initiator behind the laws.

 

[GlennB]

Meanwhile, it's pretty much civil war within the Tory party over this issue.

The prime minister said his Conservative colleague [his defence minister, Penny Mordaunt] had made “a very misleading claim” when she said Britain would not be able to stop the accession of new countries into the EU, referring especially to Turkey.

Ian Duncan Smith likened Osborne to Pinocchio over George's claims about a Brexit effect on the UK housing market. Especially amusing here is Osborne's reliance on Treasury calculations that he generally derided in the past, and that: "Chris Giles, the economics editor of the Financial Times, wrote: 'The best that can be said for these housing claims is that they are educated guesses. More likely, the numbers are just made up.' "

etc etc etc

Whoever becomes the next Con leader is taking up a seriously poisoned chalice. I suspect it will have to be an outsider with relatively clean hands.

 

[Roofgardener]

You suggest that the commission is effectively the Government. That is not the case.

The commission acts on prompting from meetings like the one I was at which they fund. 28 member states are represented. We all give our views. Where, to achieve our views new laws are needed, the commission will draft them and the counsel will vote for them.

As an example. The meeting I was at wants to exchange some data between Member States. Depending on the computer model chosen the exchange may not come under existing agreements. The commission therefore is drafting new laws that the counsel will vote on. That is because the Member states agreed to share the data not because the commission wants us to share it. If we had not agreed to share data, there would be no new law drafted.

So while technically the commission drafts laws it is not generally the initiator behind the laws.

Thanks for that clarification, Lothian.

One thought; when the meeting was organised, who requested it, and who defined the agenda and topic of the meeting ?

 

[ComfySlippers]

Today's announcement that shopping at Tesco will cost an extra £2 a week if we leave The EU was.... Odd.

 

[Lothian]

Thanks for that clarification, Lothian.

One thought; when the meeting was organised, who requested it, and who defined the agenda and topic of the meeting ?

The meeting, which happens twice a year, arose out of an EU mechanism which allows Member States to discuss common problems. This developed into a regular event. The agenda is set by the coordinator, who is voted from and by the participants, for a two year period. The commission are represented but are asked to leave the room when certain sensitive issues are discussed as they are not authorised to share in those discussions despite the fact that they fund the whole event!

 

[Roofgardener]

Jolly good - thanks again for that Lothian.
So.... these meetings... are they advisory (in the sense of making recommendations to the Commission), or are they Executive (in the sense that the Commission is required to follow their recommendations) ?

I'm guessing they are advisory.

In which case, we have a 'body' that seeks specialist advice from multiple sources, and can then elect to use that advice in the framing of legislation.

Isn't that a primary function of a Government ?

 

[Lothian]

Jolly good - thanks again for that Lothian.
So.... these meetings... are they advisory (in the sense of making recommendations to the Commission), or are they Executive (in the sense that the Commission is required to follow their recommendations) ?

I'm guessing they are advisory.

In which case, we have a 'body' that seeks specialist advice from multiple sources, and can then elect to use that advice in the framing of legislation.

Isn't that a primary function of a Government ?

Together the various EU parts certainly form a Government. My point is simply that the momentum behind that Governments actions come from the Member States as opposed to being a separate independent body that dictates to the Member states against their will, which is how some Brexiters present it.

 

[Roofgardener]

Fair point Lothian.
However, it is worth pointing out that the Commissionaires take an oath that their actions will be in the interests of the EU as a whole, rather than of their individual national affiliations.

That kinda implies a seperate "European" identity for the "European Government", as opposed to being just a debating chamber for individual national perspectives and interests.

In other words, its intent is INDEED to be a "seperate independent body"

Wether that actually works in practice , I do not know.

As for dictating to member states against their will.... no.... the Commission doesn't dictate.

THAT is the prerogative of the Council.

Except on issues of Treaty Change, it most certainly CAN impose its collective will on any given member state. This IS democracy, but I think the "Brexit" argument is that it is operating over to wide a geographical range. What is appropriate or desirable for Poland or Greece may NOT be in the interests of the UK. (and vica versa, of course).

 

[Henri McPhee]

I agree that these Brexit people have previously cut public spending, along with the banks, and have closed libraries and legal aid and disability benefit payments and encouraged workhouse discipline, and been unconcerned about the unemployed and encouraged house price inflation, and pay rises for chief executives. Practically none of them have ever been near a steel works.

I agree that a State should co-operate with other States for certain purposes. It's just I don't like a European Political Union run by the Krauts.

 

[Lothian]

I agree that these Brexit people have previously cut public spending, along with the banks, and have closed libraries and legal aid and disability benefit payments and encouraged workhouse discipline, and been unconcerned about the unemployed and encouraged house price inflation, and pay rises for chief executives. Practically none of them have ever been near a steel works.

I agree that a State should co-operate with other States for certain purposes. It's just I don't like a European Political Union run by the Krauts.

Are you a random text generator? I see words but they bear little relationship to each other or reality.