Brexit: the referendum

Carnby said:
Irrelevant in my opinion, I'm not even sure the so-called Brexit will cause e.g. secession of Scotland (in a recent referendum the Scots have opted to remain in the UK), let alone Wales or Northern Ireland (where independentist parties are tiny).
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Neither am I sure of that. But the main topic of interest here about the referendum is whether there will be a difference in the outcome in the two countries, and what the effect of that might be.

Personally I think it very likely that the UK (and English) majority will vote to stay in the EU, which would also disrupt the continental federation plans of which you speak. Xenophobia is not as prevalent in England as xenophobes hope and centre-right Conservatives fear.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I can't even remember when the bloody vote is. Perhaps both sides have realised that their campaigning is doing very little to actually influence opinion and have given up?
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It's just crowded out by the various elections and the Labour anti-semitism chow-down. For the egos involved the campaigning is an end in itself, opinion be damned. The joy of getting your face out there.

The world's going to pieces in no end of ways and we get this and Trump. I'd despair if I hadn't done long ago.
 
Craig B said:
Neither am I sure of that. But the main topic of interest here about the referendum is whether there will be a difference in the outcome in the two countries, and what the effect of that might be.

Personally I think it very likely that the UK (and English) majority will vote to stay in the EU, which would also disrupt the continental federation plans of which you speak. Xenophobia is not as prevalent in England as xenophobes hope and centre-right Conservatives fear.
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I'm still hoping that we won't, though by no means sure of that feeling!

Project Fear have gone into overdrive today invoking the four horsemen (well, War at least...), as if Europe hasn't experienced recent wars in the Balkans, Georgian and the Ukraine. All of which (with hindsight) have miss-management by the European Commission at their hearts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296
 
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Don't you think Cameron has peaked too soon? Now that he's said Brexit makes war more likely, what has he got left to scare us with in the remaining weeks of the campaign?
 
ceptimus said:
Don't you think Cameron has peaked too soon? Now that he's said Brexit makes war more likely, what has he got left to scare us with in the remaining weeks of the campaign?
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Perhaps this is a cunning plan. Apparently Johnson, back in 2014, waxed lyrical about the EU and how it had brought about "generations of peace". So he is caught being inconsistent, which undermines his credibility.

Yes, like anybody would care, or anybody would even think anybody would care.
 
I think so far it's war, a massive increase in house prices and mortgages, and the awesome £4300 p/a decrease in "GDP per household"(!).

I'm all for a good debate but seriously.
Makey-Uppy stuff just sounds silly.
 
Carnby said:
From a pro-European point of view, I hope Brits will choose the right option (exit) and let us continentals build a European federation in twenty years' time.
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The big problem then is that Demographics and economics will be against Europe (and Russia): Everybody Else will have a larger economic base relative to Europe and Europe's population is greying out/aging. The days of European domination due to imperialism are dwindling fast.
 
Craig B said:
That would definitely divide Scotland from England. We still celebrate the Auld Alliance of Scotland and France against the common enemy, as was.
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Which is strange of Scotland. People who'd castigate Blair being bush's "poodle", seem sentimental about Scotland being France's expendable cats paw.
 
Carnby said:
Irrelevant in my opinion, I'm not even sure the so-called Brexit will cause e.g. secession of Scotland (in a recent referendum the Scots have opted to remain in the UK), let alone Wales or Northern Ireland (where independentist parties are tiny).
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That's not entirely true about Northern Ireland; Nationalist/Republican parties just won 40/108 seats. That doesn't reflect actual short term public opinion though.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
 
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Giz said:
Which is strange of Scotland. People who'd castigate Blair being bush's "poodle", seem sentimental about Scotland being France's expendable cats paw.
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The "Auld Alliance" did not work very well for Scotland in the long run.
 
Giz said:
Which is strange of Scotland. People who'd castigate Blair being bush's "poodle", seem sentimental about Scotland being France's expendable cats paw.
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Scotland didn't go to war with England to indulge France. She allied with France in 1295, to obtain help against England. Exactly what the USA did during the War of Independence against Great Britain.
France was the first ally of the new United States due to its 1778 treaty and military support in the American Revolutionary War.​
 
Craig B said:
Scotland didn't go to war with England to indulge France. She allied with France in 1295, to obtain help against England. Exactly what the USA did during the War of Independence against Great Britain.
France was the first ally of the new United States due to its 1778 treaty and military support in the American Revolutionary War.​
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And continued being allied well after it was needed. Leading to tension and fully that needn't have happened (i.e. flodden)
 
Giz said:
And continued being allied well after it was needed. Leading to tension and fully that needn't have happened (i.e. flodden)
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So you mean once French aid had done its work, the Scots should have terminated the alliance? So much for loyalty between allies.

If you have a hostile great power as a neighbour, it makes sense to have another great power as a friend, even if that entails a cost from time to time. That, I suppose, was the reasoning of the Scots magnates of the later Middle Ages.

However that may be, I don't think that hostility to France is as widespread in Scotland as it is among southern brexiteers.
 
Craig B said:
So you mean once French aid had done its work, the Scots should have terminated the alliance? So much for loyalty between allies.
.
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By that logic, Blair was obviously right to support bush all the way. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Giz said:
By that logic, Blair was obviously right to support bush all the way. Wouldn't you agree?
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I don't even start to agree, because as I have stated
Craig B said:
Scotland didn't go to war with England to indulge France. She allied with France in 1295, to obtain help against England. Exactly what the USA did during the War of Independence against Great Britain.
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Blair, on the contrary, was indulging Bush, not striving to liberate the UK, when he joined in the disastrous and criminal Iraq escapade.
 
Craig B said:
I don't even start to agree, because as I have stated Blair, on the contrary, was indulging Bush, not striving to liberate the UK, when he joined in the disastrous and criminal Iraq escapade.
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Flodden came long after 1295. And was just Scotland indulging France. It's a clear parallel, you just don't like it.
 
This morning Boris was quizzed on R4 Today programme about the relationship with Europe. He said, post Brexit, he wanted access to the free trade area. When it was put to him that the only countries that have that pay with free movement of people (they also pay financially but the point wasn't made) Boris replied with America as the example of what he was looking for Britain to have.

Americans pay tariffs when trading with the EU.

The Brexit side need to be clear. If by saying they want access to the free market they mean that they want to trade with the EU with the addition of tariffs they need to say that. Saying "access to the free trade area" makes it sound like tariff free trade.

For me this is a crucial point.

Post Brexit will there be trade tariffs with Europe? If not, and if there will be free trade what will we pay pay for it in terms of money and other concessions (free movement)?

These are huge factors that will affect the prosperity of the UK. I appreciate that a deal has not been done but without any indication of a realistic settlement it does not help people decide.
 
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Giz said:
Flodden came long after 1295. And was just Scotland indulging France. It's a clear parallel, you just don't like it.
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It was the fulfilment of a treaty relationship contracted long before in very different circumstances, and which was in general of great value to Scotland. If Scotland and France were not the parties involved, it would be unreservedly praised by the right wing as a laudable example of loyalty. See also battle of FloddenWP
Henry VIII had also opened old wounds by claiming to be the overlord of Scotland​
Henry later effectively conquered Ireland, and annexed Wales, so his expansionist aspirations were not an imaginary issue.

Personally, I think the battle was the height of idiocy. What about this?
In keeping with his understanding of the medieval code of chivalry, King James sent notice to the English, one month in advance, of his intent to invade​
He had a thing about knightly tournaments, did James.
 
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