Brexit: the referendum

Jules Galen said:
I think Europe should call the Bluff of those who insist that the UK separate from the EU. Because without the EU, the UK is nothing...Repeat....Nothing. And I think the EU should take this time to remind the UK that it is a weak partner in this affair.

The UK has thoroughly deindustrialized over the past 50 years to the extent where they can manufacture nothing on their own - NOTHING. Yet the Hubris of some in the UK is immense - they are so delusional that it has become dangerous.

But...the UK probably won't exit the EU and continue to suck on Europe's teets for the forseable future....biting the teet that feeds it all the while. Gawd I'm sick of this...it's so ugly and shameful that it's nauseating.
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I am all in favour of remaining in the EU, and struggle to think of any way that the EU has adversely affected anyone I know - as opposed to hypothetical situations that some pro-exit people have said.

However, I'm surprised to know that the semiconductor fab on the site that I work* is not making anything. Last time I looked, it was competitive with ones situated in the Far East.

*I am not directly involved in the manufacture, but in the R&D and commercialisation.
 
jimbob said:
I am all in favour of remaining in the EU, and struggle to think of any way that the EU has adversely affected anyone I know - as opposed to hypothetical situations that some pro-exit people have said.

However, I'm surprised to know that the semiconductor fab on the site that I work* is not making anything. Last time I looked, it was competitive with ones situated in the Far East.

*I am not directly involved in the manufacture, but in the R&D and commercialisation.
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Just curious. Is this site foreign owned? Because I can't seem to find a semiconductor fab firm that is UK owned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

If it seems like I am being hateful to the UK, I am not. I just appreciate the history of the UK and the fact that it was at one time the World's unquestioned leader in Science and Technology - a legacy that has been utterly squandered. It is quite sad.

In fact, I could start a thread where the topic was that the UK almost single-handedly moved the world forward for almost 200 years - and I think I could make a good case for it (or...shall I say the UK's achievements would make the case)

Even today as the UK deindustrializes and has chosen the Financialization Road to Ruin, it still produces some great scientists - and I find this amazing.
 
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I am not too sure about some of the optoelectronics fabs, but I can think of American, German and Dutch owned fabs as well as a Japanese wafer manufacturer.

ARM is also the poster child for fabless IP developers
 
CapelDodger said:
Which side are you on?

A great financial centre with a heritage park attached. And grouse-moors. That's the vision.
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I'm on the side that wants to see both the UK and the EU come out with a good deal. However, before the UK can effectively move forward, it's got to admit it has a problem. And....it's the same problem that has infected America, too. I mean, one day we'll all be part-time real-estate and insurance salesmen who also work part time at the bank to make ends meet...that's our vision.

George Carlin once made a joke about America that went like this:

We average a major war every 20 years in this country, so we are good at it! And that is good thing we are, we are not very good in anything else anymore. Can't built a decent car, can't make a TV set or VCR worth a *%&(. Got no steel industry left, can't educate our young people can't get health care for our old people, but we can bomb the *$#@ out of your country alright?!

It's getting to be pretty-much true. Also, as America forgets how to build consumer items, it will also lose its edge in Military Design and Development, too (of which we are most proud). In short, a country without a solid manufacturing base can not be a Wealthy Country, and it can not be a Military Super-Power.
 
GlennB said:
In other news: It appears that if you weigh the opinion polls in terms of the likelihood of the voters turning out then Brexit gets a boost. Older voters are more likely to turn out and be in favour of leavinghttp://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...-low-turnout-on-side-eu-referendum-older-vote
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My mother's for Out, I'm for In, so we're not voting. That way we neither of us have to associate with either camp.

I'm in my seventh decade, Mum's in her ninth, it's not really about us anyway. This is about the younger generations. If they mess it up it's their own damn' fault. Letting the grey vote's Empire nostalgia make a difference counts as messing up.

This is what I'm impressing on my nepots and their significant others. I may not be voting but I'm lobbying hard.
 
Jules Galen said:
I'm on the side that wants to see both the UK and the EU come out with a good deal.
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Any European intervention, let alone one associating the UK with weakness, wiould be counter-productive. Cameron's playing the Fear card already; best leave him to it.

However, before the UK can effectively move forward, it's got to admit it has a problem.
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Rather than get into that, I'd rather stick to the referendum. I'm sure we agree broadly on the UK's systemic problems and the benefits of EU membership (which so often go unrecognised by people with no memory of life before membership).

This referendum is climactic. Four decades of predictable plot and at last the money-shot.

And what do we hear from two of the stars? "A vote for exit is a vote for staying in on better terms". Not the most loin-stirring stuff, is it? It could almost be an attempt at sabotage by two good friends of Cameron. On whom he has dirt.

I'm not suggesting that's the case, I'm just saying that if it were the case it would look just like it does.
 
There was an interesting debate about Brexit in the House of Commons yesterday in which the Conservative MP for Gainsborough, Sir Edward Leigh, spoke eloquently for about an hour about the European Political Union.

He made some interesting points that there had never been any independent analysis about whether we would be better off in or out. He also said that the House of Commons only debates things like same sex marriages and hunting, and what type of sugar to put on creme brulee, but never about the mass of new laws and regulations coming form Europe every year, or about bugging.

He also said that Heath's negotiations with the EU were stumbling in 1971, so Heath gave concessions which has resulted in disaster for the British fishing industry.

It's like an old economics textbook once said the axiom that work comes before money has to be accepted, otherwise substantial economic growth casnnot occur. Germany after the 1939-45 war did just this without realizing it. Though 'bankrupt' it provided work.

I'm a great believer in making things. Nowadays trains and carriages are imported from Germany and Japan which I think is a monumental misjudgment.
 
Henri McPhee said:
I'm a great believer in making things. Nowadays trains and carriages are imported from Germany and Japan which I think is a monumental misjudgment.
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This quote succinctly puts the spotlight on what I suspect is an important part of what makes the British want to go. Mentally, they're not in the EU, making a German-made train not a train made by "us Europeans" but by "those Europeans".
 
H'ethetheth said:
This quote succinctly puts the spotlight on what I suspect is an important part of what makes the British want to go. Mentally, they're not in the EU, making a German-made train not a train made by "us Europeans" but by "those Europeans".
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The benefits are concentrated in the neighbourhood of the train manufacturer and the taxes go to the state and the Federal governments. A small fraction goes outside Germany, although the single market means that more subcontractors and suppliers might be from outside Germany but within the EU.
 
Lothian said:
It is technically correct. Not the only consideration but correct as a statement :D

Whether the UK decides to add Vat will depend on negotiations what the new UK wants to tax and a law rewrite.
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Import duty, (if applicable), and taxes. The UK doesn't decide what taxes are owed to Germany for its train.

If I buy a toy train from America for US$1000,000.00
and it costs me UK£10,000.00 for shipping
and it costs me UK£10,000.00 to insure

I'll pay UK£14,8167.07 in VAT

:P
 
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ComfySlippers said:
The UK doesn't decide what taxes, (VAT), are owed to Germany for its train.
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Actually we do! The European parliament including our MEPs decide.
EU rules aim to make supplies from the EU to non EU countries attractive so they are Vat free.
Under current EU Rules there would be no Vat on the train.

The UK could put Vat on European imported goods to protect our businesses however it would require a law change.
 
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If people are worried about the lack of manufacturing in the UK then Brexit would be a great way to completely destroy a lot of what remains. Nobody particularly wants to have a European manufacturing facility that is not in the EU.

All of the car plants in the UK (foreign owned) would be under threat. All of the associated manufacturing would be lost if they go. All of the heavy industrial stuff would be seriously looked at.

Eastern Europe is already positioning itself as a manufacturing powerhouse and the great advantage of Slovakia, Czech Republic, Romania etc is that they in the EU.
 
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

"Manufacturing contributes £6.7tr to the global economy. Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. Manufacturing makes up 11% of UK GVA and 54% of UK exports and directly employs 2.6 million people."

http://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindus...om/2014intermediateresultsand2013finalresults

"The value of UK manufacturers’ product sales reached £363.9 billion in 2014, a 2.6% increase on the 2013 estimate of £354.7 billion"

Membership of the EU costs £18 billion from which we should subtract £5 billion rebate and £4 billion is payments mainly to UK farmers, which leaves £9 billion. That is 2.47% of our manufacturing sales.

Those who spout doom and gloom should start to produce some figures to back up their depression.
 
jimbob said:
As an aside, the European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU, but a parallel development and we are not going to have a referendum on leaving *that*.

ETA: There are lots of other European arrangements that would be messy to unpick.

And to think that in 1940, Britain was considering an act of union with France.
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That is confusing many people who are presently blaming the EU for issues which are not due to the EU.

Human rights decisions - the Council of Europe and the ECHR

Polish workers over here getting benefits and stealing out jobs - The European Economic Area, which includes non EU members and Switzerland.

Border controls - Schengen and the UK is not in Schengen (but there is an agreement with Ireland for an open border there).

Asylum seekers - the UK government as you cannot claim asylum in an EU country if you are a citizen of another EU country

Bailing out the Greeks - the Eurozone countries of which the UK is not one.
 
Nessie said:
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

"Manufacturing contributes £6.7tr to the global economy. Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. Manufacturing makes up 11% of UK GVA and 54% of UK exports and directly employs 2.6 million people."
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Sure. tell us about the UK's great car companies, or its electronics manufacturers - or even its Haggis makers. Something!

Most everything that is value-added manufacturing in the UK is there because it is owned and operated by foreign companies. This is why the UK without the EU is a Big-Fat Zero as far as being a viable manufacturer of anything!

Sorry to break it to ya' man, but the Sex Pistols were right, and Britan's dreaming:

Anarchy for the UK
It's coming sometime and maybe
I give a wrong time stop at traffic line
Your future dream is a sharpie's scheme

'Cause I wanna be Anarchy
In the city
 
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