Brexit: Now What? Part III

[Craig B]

I'm against the unelected House of Lords. But you're letting your prejudice show again - it's the good ole English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish democracy that props up the good ole English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish House of Lords.

One of my close collateral Ancestors, John Crosbie, was in fact a member of the Irish House of Lords, as Earl of Glandore, but it was abolished in 1801 and he became a member of Westminster Lords. He was indeed elected - as a "representative peer" by the other Irish Lords. Says wiki:

... he was elected for both Tralee and Ardfert. He chose to sit for the latter, and held the seat until 1781, when he succeeded his father in the earldom and entered the Irish House of Lords. He was sworn of the Irish Privy Council in 1785. In 1789, he was appointed Joint Master of the Rolls in Ireland alongside the Earl of Carysfort. They both held the post until 1801. In 1800, he was elected as one of the 28 original Irish Representative Peers to sit in the House of Lords.​

But I really can't see how democracy in the minority countries of the UK props up English Lords nowadays, whatever may have been the arrangement in 1801.

 

[abaddon]

What do you mean?

The scots and the NI want nothing to do with it.

The UK will ultimately pass just like the "Empire" and I don't care if they die in the fire of their own creation.

Is that clear enough?

 

[ddt]

Correct. We'll get a chance to vote the Tories out of office in five years or less. Those countries remaining in the EU have no such opportunity to get rid of their lousy and corrupt leaders.

Which leaders? We don't even have a government at the moment. With some luck, the coalition talks are finalized before the next scheduled elections.

But it's strange that they have no problem with unelected (by voters) leaders like Tusk and Junker.

Oh, that red herring again. No, we didn't vote for the members of the Commission. But we did vote for the MEPs who agreed to their appointment. And you didn't vote in 2015 for May either. You never vote for the cabinet. You can only be reasonably sure that the leader of the plurality party becomes MP, for the first months after the election, but after that all bets are off, and you have no idea who will fill the rest of the cabinet.

 

[ceptimus]

Which leaders? We don't even have a government at the moment. With some luck, the coalition talks are finalized before the next scheduled elections.


Oh, that red herring again. No, we didn't vote for the members of the Commission. But we did vote for the MEPs who agreed to their appointment. And you didn't vote in 2015 for May either. You never vote for the cabinet. You can only be reasonably sure that the leader of the plurality party becomes MP, for the first months after the election, but after that all bets are off, and you have no idea who will fill the rest of the cabinet.

You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.

 

[ceptimus]

The scots and the NI want nothing to do with it.

The UK will ultimately pass just like the "Empire" and I don't care if they die in the fire of their own creation.

Is that clear enough?

No. You replied to my post, "Guess again", implying I'd got something wrong, but you now (probably after vainly searching to try to prove I was wrong) come back with this non sequitur.

There are plenty of Scottish and Northern Irish members of the House of Lords, so you are clearly wrong about them 'wanting nothing to do with it'.

Anyway, it's nice to know that I was right.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I never claimed otherwise. It's because the EU wants to go in a different direction to the majority of UK voters, that the UK has sensibly made the decision to leave. The UK isn't demanding that the EU change its policies - we recognize that we're outvoted by the other European countries that have different views to our own, so we no longer want to be part of it.

It's exactly the same with the SNP wanting to leave the UK. The only difference is that a a majority of the UK did vote to leave the EU, while the majority of Scots voted in favour of remaining in the UK.

Except the EU and the democratically UK government were in agreement on almost every single matter ever put to a vote in the EU. So what different direction are you talking about?

 

[ceptimus]

A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.

Blah blah blah. What different direction are you talking about? What policies did the UK government object to? The majority of the democratically elected government wanted to stay in the EU?

 

[Craig B]

No. You replied to my post, "Guess again", implying I'd got something wrong, but you now (probably after vainly searching to try to prove I was wrong) come back with this non sequitur.

There are plenty of Scottish and Northern Irish members of the House of Lords, so you are clearly wrong about them 'wanting nothing to do with it'.

Anyway, it's nice to know that I was right.

Well at least you know it, if nobody else does. Yes, there are plenty of Scottish and N Irish lords. But what has that to do with the democracy of the governments of these countries?

 

[ddt]

You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.

You're ensured of one British Commissioner, and on an important post as well. How many Welsh, Scottish or NI politicians are now in the British cabinet?

Furthermore, it's disingenuous to picture it as UK vs. the rest of the EU. The selection of the individual Commissioners is a political horse trading where the political colours-du-jour of the respective governments are far more important than some nebulous alliances between states.

 

[ddt]

A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.

How in Hades' name could the UK nowadays (or say two years ago) be newly branded as troublemaker in the EU context?

 

[quadraginta]

Not unless you consider Northumbria part of Scotland. Then again with a name like NorthUmbria, maybe it is part of Italy

The Scots could annex it, I guess.

 

[ddt]

The Scots could annex it, I guess.

Newcastle United would certainly spice up the Celtic/Rangers duopoly in the Scottish Premiership.

 

[commandlinegamer]

Poor Dennis Skinner^WP has lost it, but think his motive is the anti capitalist ideology discussed already, whereby people vote against the EU because it is a capitalist club.

His own words:

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/09/12/exclusive-dennis-skinner-on-his-euw-vote/

Fair enough if he's representing the views of his constituents but does he consult them every time he votes in the Commons?

 

[Vixen]

Newcastle United would certainly spice up the Celtic/Rangers duopoly in the Scottish Premiership.

Did you forget Queen of the South?

 

[ddt]

And the Tories get their second important vote for implementing the Great Repeal Bill. The Independent:

With parliament needing to change, amend or import wholesale thousands of laws and regulation to prepare the UK for its exit from the European Union, the EU Withdrawal Bill has been designed to allow for new laws and regulations to be passed via controversial legislative device called a statutory instrument, which are debated in tiny standing committees.

But the government has now voted to give itself a majority on the little known Committee of Selection, which decides the make up of those committees, and in so doing has seized control of the whole process.

So whatever parliamentary oversight there is over its implementation, is done in committees that are majority controlled by the Tories.

 

[The Don]

And the Tories get their second important vote for implementing the Great Repeal Bill. The Independent:

So whatever parliamentary oversight there is over its implementation, is done in committees that are majority controlled by the Tories.

But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:

• The head of state is an hereditary position
• The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
• The government polled 42%
• The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
• The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

 

[McHrozni]

But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:

• The head of state is an hereditary position
• The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
• The government polled 42%
• The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
• The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

I'm starting to think the Brexiteers were misunderstood with this democratic deficit argument. What they meant was that the EU is too democratic to their tastes and they perfer an easier system, like the one in Russia - one leader, one party, one state, that sort of thing.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:

• The head of state is an hereditary position
• The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
• The government polled 42%
• The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
• The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

Brexit looking more and more like a coup by the Tory hard right and a blatant power grab. God help us.

 

[The Don]

I'm starting to think the Brexiteers were misunderstood with this democratic deficit argument. What they meant was that the EU is too democratic to their tastes and they perfer an easier system, like the one in Russia - one leader, one party, one state, that sort of thing.

McHrozni

It seems that they're happy with whatever system is in force so long as they get *exactly* what they want.

The whole "poor Britain never getting its way in Europe" meme is a great example of that. They pretend that the EU is foisting its laws on the UK all the time when in fact 95% of the time the UK votes in favour of legislation and abstaining in 3% of cases. Only in 2% of cases did a vote pass council against UK wishes and even then, the extensive opt-outs that successive UK governments have negotiated, means that the impact is even lower than that.

The UK in general, and Brexiteers in particular, are the spoiled brats of the EU.