Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

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Aber said:
Was it?

Did it mean 'status quo', or 'ever closer union, all the way to a federal state', or 'something in-between'?
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A good point.

Some Leave voters may have been more-or-less fine with the EU as it is, but at odds with the prospect of it becoming a more centralised, federal state. If NAFTA evolved to the point where Canadian provinces could soon envision becoming actual US states, I'd want to pull out of it yesterday.
 
Let's be fair here you could with intellectual honesty describe the EU as the most complicated political-legal concept in history with, and this is especially true of the UK, there being so many exceptions and asterisk to everything that it's damn near impossible for a layperson to fully understand it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
You seem to think I'm defending Brexit as a concept or its supporters and I seem to be catching a lot of anger for that. I am not.
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Fair point. I shall bear that in mind. Apologies for my misunderstanding.

Hell I'm completely honest here the UK had so many asterisk and exceptions to the EU anyway that actually going through the trouble of leaving the EU seems rather silly to me. The UK has enough leverage to largely pick and choose which parts of the EU it pays attention to and which ones to ignore already it seems.

All I'm saying is.

1. The fact that the referendum was non-binding (I've referred to it as nothing more than a glorified opinion poll throughout this whole discussion) does not make it meaningless. When the government asks the people something in an official capacity it is not unreasonable for the people to expect their answer to actually have an affect.
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I don't know about that. I think it's actually unreasonable to treat a non-binding referendum as binding, which is what seems to be happening here.


2. If you didn't trust the people to make the decision you shouldn't have asked them. To essentially ask them their opinion and then after the fact go "Oh never mind you obviously don't know what you are talking about" only after they answer "wrong" is dirty pool, even if it is 100% true.
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I think there might have been a level of trust that both sides would campaign with integrity.


In a democracy "We trust the people to answer this question" has got to be something you determine before you put the question to them, not after. After is too late.
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Again, the non-binding nature of the poll means that there's no obligation expected or due.


3. And again this just a major political party dangling a carrot in front of a group of one-issue voters, safe in the assumption that they could have pulled the carrot out of the way at the last minute and now when that didn't happen everyone is just trying to pretend like they didn't get the carrot.

This was a political bluff that got called. You still lose the hand when your bluff gets called. You can't after the fact go "Well if I knew you where gonna call my bluff I would have folded, so I'm just gonna keep my part of the pot."
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To continue your analogy, yes, a bluff, but not an all-in bluff (non binding). I believe we still have a chip and a chair.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I do wonder if "The EU" is just symbolic and everything the Brexit voters are really worried (separate from questions as to whether or they are valid/right) about could be done without technically leaving it (or vice versa I guess)
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I'm pretty sure that, on at least some level, the answer is yes and yes. Everything bad gets blamed on either the Conservative party, the EU or both, which pretty much means there's a majority at least sympathetic to blaming it on the EU.

Belz... said:
Some Leave voters may have been more-or-less fine with the EU as it is, but at odds with the prospect of it becoming a more centralised, federal state.
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I'm also pretty sure that at least some Leave voters would have been happy remaining in the pre-Maastricht EEC, which is why the ruin-up to Maastricht would have actually been a much better time to hold a referendum. I'm increasingly coming to feel that not having done so is the origin of all the current problems.

Dave
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again that just invalided like... everything ever done under a democracy ever of all time.

And this is a little close to "They obviously didn't know what they are talking about because they disagreed with me. If they did, they would have voted the way I think they should."

Hell we can't get our own elected officials to bother reading what they are voting for 90% of the time. Sure as hell aren't going to get the holi polloi to do it.
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Do you think its democratic to push ahead with leaving the EU even if the majority of people having seen what it actually means no longer want to?

If you do can you please explain to me how you reached that conclusion?

Otherwise, can you stop wittering on about democracy and get on the page of trying to stop people dying from the oncoming super-austerity?
 
Dave Rogers said:
I'm also pretty sure that at least some Leave voters would have been happy remaining in the pre-Maastricht EEC, which is why the ruin-up to Maastricht would have actually been a much better time to hold a referendum. I'm increasingly coming to feel that not having done so is the origin of all the current problems.
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Lisbon treaty was probably the watershed with hindsight - Blair handed over in time to avoid responsibility; Brown made sure that it was physically signed by David Miliband; Cameron backtracked on his sortof referendum pledge. Nobody was keen on promoting it as a good thing.
 
JoeMorgue said:
You seem to think I'm defending Brexit as a concept or its supporters and I seem to be catching a lot of anger for that. I am not.

Hell I'm completely honest here the UK had so many asterisk and exceptions to the EU anyway that actually going through the trouble of leaving the EU seems rather silly to me. The UK has enough leverage to largely pick and choose which parts of the EU it pays attention to and which ones to ignore already it seems.

All I'm saying is.

1. The fact that the referendum was non-binding (I've referred to it as nothing more than a glorified opinion poll throughout this whole discussion) does not make it meaningless. When the government asks the people something in an official capacity it is not unreasonable for the people to expect their answer to actually have an affect.

2. If you didn't trust the people to make the decision you shouldn't have asked them. To essentially ask them their opinion and then after the fact go "Oh never mind you obviously don't know what you are talking about" only after they answer "wrong" is dirty pool, even if it is 100% true.

In a democracy "We trust the people to answer this question" has got to be something you determine before you put the question to them, not after. After is too late.

3. And again this just a major political party dangling a carrot in front of a group of one-issue voters, safe in the assumption that they could have pulled the carrot out of the way at the last minute and now when that didn't happen everyone is just trying to pretend like they didn't get the carrot.

This was a political bluff that got called. You still lose the hand when your bluff gets called. You can't after the fact go "Well if I knew you where gonna call my bluff I would have folded, so I'm just gonna keep my part of the pot."
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If we want to talk about pulling the carrot away perhaps consider that the Leave campaign were on TV publicly walking back on their promises literally the morning after the result.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit and nobody hence voted for one. They were told they could have the benefits of the EU without being members while being free to do whatever they wanted elsewhere.

It was absolute nonsense on stilts from the start.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
If we want to talk about pulling the carrot away perhaps consider that the Leave campaign were on TV publicly walking back on their promises literally the morning after the result.

Nobody campaigned for a no-deal Brexit and nobody hence voted for one. They were told they could have the benefits of the EU without being members while being free to do whatever they wanted elsewhere.

It was absolute nonsense on stilts from the start.
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"Yes we told you this car was a great little driver, its too late to complain it doesn't actually have an engine now you've bought it". Honestly if Leave was a product the 'makers' would have been done under the Trade Descriptions Act by now.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I do wonder if "The EU" is just symbolic and everything the Brexit voters are really worried (separate from questions as to whether or they are valid/right) about could be done without technically leaving it (or vice versa I guess)
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I doubt it for a lot.

They were feeling healthy and full of hope when they were teenagers and in their early twenties with full employment and final salary pension schemes to look forward to.

Overturning the Brexit result won't give them back their youth.
 
Tolls said:
Do you know what was voted for in 2016?
Can you describe what "Leave" meant?
Because that is what we're arguing about.

Remain was bloody obvious.
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Maybe it was. And if it was, 52% still voted against it.

Actually, not all that obvious when you consider the 'ever closer union' thing.
 
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ceptimus said:
Maybe it was. And if it was, 52% still voted against it.

Actually, not all that obvious when you consider the 'ever closer union' thing.
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Can you descrive what leave meant? Boris cant even describe his plan now and he has had 2 years. Farage ran away. Gove has gone quiet. Leadsom turned out to be a nutter and Rees Mogg has always been one.

Channel4 on Twitter
Boris Johnson has written his "better plan for Brexit " in his Telegraph column - but he won't tell us any of the details. https://t.co/S2njKJ8MaM

Sums up Brexit and Brexiters perfectly. Bluster and hot air then run away from any questions on facts
 
jimbob said:
I doubt it for a lot.

They were feeling healthy and full of hope when they were teenagers and in their early twenties with full employment and final salary pension schemes to look forward to.

Overturning the Brexit result won't give them back their youth.
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i disagree. The issues that caused the Brexit vote absolutely could be solved without leaving the EU. Just tell all the gammons to stfu instead of pandering to their insanity.
 
Brexit Secretary claims that the EU is using the Irish Border to try and split Brtitain up as a punishment for leaving the EU.
 
Remain supporters continue with the negative propaganda about leaving, because even they can't think of anything positive to say about their beloved EU.
 
ceptimus said:
Remain supporters continue with the negative propaganda about leaving, because even they can't think of anything positive to say about their beloved EU.
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Yes, that must be it. We Remainers are all yelling that the bridge is out because we can't think of anything nice to say about the miles of railway track behind us.
 
ceptimus said:
Remain supporters continue with the negative propaganda about leaving, because even they can't think of anything positive to say about their beloved EU.
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Free trade,
Open borders
Consistent laws
Representative democracy,
Economy of scale in administration
Easy air travel
Cheaper financial transaction fees
Free Calls from the EU on existing mobile plans
Easy to work abroad
Choice of passport colours
Visa free travel in the EU
No Irish border issues
Erasmus
Euratom
Ability to fly planes and land them in the EU
Galileo
 
ceptimus said:
Remain supporters continue with the negative propaganda about leaving, because even they can't think of anything positive to say about their beloved EU.
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Doesn't actually address the point - Check.

Doesn't make any sense - Check

Content free - Check

Brexiteers in fine form as usual.
 
I think it is becoming increasingly clear that Prime Minister Theresa May is not handling Brexit in the best way. The threat of a catastrophic and chaotic Brexit is looming, which might be a disaster for both the UK and the European Union.

On the other hand, it seems to me that Boris Johnson's views on Brexit (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45673214 ) are somewhat underestimated. I believe a good option for the UK would be to delay Brexit until a credible "Canada +" plan has been agreed with Brussels, then organize a second referendum "with a practical orientation", and give British voters a choice between a (fully worked out) Canada + plan and staying in the EU.
 
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