Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

[Vixen]

Haven't updated myself this morning but there was much pseudo philosophical debate last night on whether the Bill was dead, paused or in limbo as well as what being in limbo actually meant and then some discussions on the teachings of the Catholic Church, Dante and Monty Python. (And I'm not even joking)

This is just a jolly old jape for the Eton boys.

My understanding of the actual situation:

- The Bill is now stopped and cannot progress until a timetable is approved by Parliament
- The Government aren't going to bring this timetable motion for the time being
- Nothing can therefore get approved before Oct 31.
- We are waiting to see if the EU approve an extension, if they do then we will get an extension, if not then we will have a no-deal exit at the end of the month- The Tories want an election as they think they will win it. But they can't get one without the support of the opposition.
-Meanwhile the Tories are claiming the deal was approved, while Labour are saying they only passed it so they can change it completely.

Confused yet? Everyone else is.

There is one other possibility in that scenario, and that is to revoke Article 50.

 

[ceptimus]

Everyone in favour of Brexit, who have spent the last three and a half years explaining in detail why, once their side has won one referendum, any second referendum before everyone who voted in the first one is dead would be an attack on the very fundamentals of democracy, although if the first one had gone the other way a second referendum as soon as possible would have been absolutely vital to the proper functioning of democracy. From a tactical point of view the bro-Brexit side have nothing to gain and everythign to lose from a second referendum, so they'll advance every argument and use every tactic they can think of to avoid it. And if you sincerely believe no-one can object to a confirmatory referendum, you haven't been paying attention.

Dave

How about all the Remain supporting politicians, including the Prime Minister and Chancellor at the time, plus Corbyn himself, who all promised sincerely that the referendum would NOT be rerun, and that it would be a once in a generation event?


https://youtu.be/mHZFICg6EIE

That was before they LOST of course, since when they have been shown to be the complete liars that they are.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

1. The hard right cabinet that Bojo has assembled will be seen as staunch enough to render the Brexit Party somewhat impotent. They seem to have gone slightly quiet of late. You also wonder whether some deals have been done behind closed doors.

Farage has been shooting his mouth off every chance he gets.

2. The opposition are capable of co-operation given that Swinson seems to be doing her best to annoy everyone, Corbyn is Corbyn and nobody seems willing to offer the SNP anything worthwhile.

Yes, this is the biggest obstacle.

I said it was a realistic best-case, not that it was probable.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

That was before they LOST of course, since when they have been shown to be the complete liars that they are.

Just today alone I've read 7 separate lies by Johnon.

Here's one: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186986118010540033

In an email *signed* by the Prime Minister to Conservative supporters, he repeats the nonsense/untruth that the deal “passed Parliament.”

Here's another 6 from yesterday: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186894987176402945

And, just for a laugh and in order to show how consistent a politician Johnson is: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1186975313424715776

Brilliant from @StewartHosieSNP at #PMQs Reads out a ringing endorsement of EU membership, waits for the inevitable Tory jeers to subside

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then tells them he was quoting from Boris Johnson.

 

[quadraginta]

Like a corny South American soap opera, you have to have followed it from the beginning to understand all the twists and turns and nuances. Confused? You won't be...after the next episode of, 'BREXIT!'

I have been following it from the beginning.

That might even be part of the problem.

 

[quadraginta]

Haven't updated myself this morning but there was much pseudo philosophical debate last night on whether the Bill was dead, paused or in limbo as well as what being in limbo actually meant and then some discussions on the teachings of the Catholic Church, Dante and Monty Python. (And I'm not even joking)

This is just a jolly old jape for the Eton boys.

My understanding of the actual situation:

- The Bill is now stopped and cannot progress until a timetable is approved by Parliament
- The Government aren't going to bring this timetable motion for the time being
- Nothing can therefore get approved before Oct 31.
- We are waiting to see if the EU approve an extension, if they do then we will get an extension, if not then we will have a no-deal exit at the end of the month
- The Tories want an election as they think they will win it. But they can't get one without the support of the opposition.
-Meanwhile the Tories are claiming the deal was approved, while Labour are saying they only passed it so they can change it completely.

Confused yet? Everyone else is.

Wise words to live by;

"If you think you know what's going on, that means you don't understand the situation."​

 

[catsmate]

Johnson has got to the same place May had got to. But he wants to do the debating about the bill and any amendments and votes on the amendments in only 3 days. Parliament has said no, since it would clearly take more than 3 days to debate and amend.

The debates and amendments over May's deal took weeks and they were never happy with it. I think Parliament knows they will just be stuck in the same rut as before. Lots of amendments and no agreements.

They are looking for another way out and a GE is one.

Put down some camp beds and set up electronic voting; don't let MPs leave until the bill is debated fully.

 

[Garrison]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ail-to-agree-timetable-for-paused-brexit-bill

Corbyn and Johnson meet and cannot agree.

I think it is time that Parliament faces up to its inability to agree on what to do and go back to the public, either with a GE or another referendum.

It has to be referendum for Brexit, there are too many complicating factors to try and take the outcome of a GE as any sort of barometer on Brexit. How many Labour leave supporters will still vote for a Labour party that is still technically on the Remain side because they don't trust the Tories with NHS? Likewise how many Tory remainers will stick with the party because they don't trust Corbyn not to send their taxes through the roof?

Resolve the Brexit situation one way or another then hold a GE.

 

[BobTheCoward]

It has to be referendum for Brexit, there are too many complicating factors to try and take the outcome of a GE as any sort of barometer on Brexit. How many Labour leave supporters will still vote for a Labour party that is still technically on the Remain side because they don't trust the Tories with NHS? Likewise how many Tory remainers will stick with the party because they don't trust Corbyn not to send their taxes through the roof?

Resolve the Brexit situation one way or another then hold a GE.

If there was a vote of no confidence, would Johnson win?

 

[Lothian]

How about all the Remain supporting politicians, including the Prime Minister and Chancellor at the time, plus Corbyn himself, who all promised sincerely that the referendum would NOT be rerun, and that it would be a once in a generation event.

That was before they LOST of course, since when they have been shown to be the complete liars that they are.

This prime minster promised to pull the latest 'deal' if he lost the second vote last night. He also promised we would remain in the single market if we voted leave. If he can't be expected to keep his own promises how can you reasonably expect him to keep the promises of someone two prime minsters ago?

 

[Lothian]

If there was a vote of no confidence, would Johnson win?

Depends if enough people vote for having no confidence.

Certainly there are enough that lack confidence in him but tactically there could be merit in leaving him in post.

 

[sphenisc]

If there was a vote of no confidence, would Johnson win?

Win as in keep his job, or win as in getting to run away and let someone else clean up the Augean stables?

 

[dudalb]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ail-to-agree-timetable-for-paused-brexit-bill

Corbyn and Johnson meet and cannot agree.

I think it is time that Parliament faces up to its inability to agree on what to do and go back to the public, either with a GE or another referendum.

Wow, it is a lot like the situation with the elections in Israel......

 

[dudalb]

Win as in keep his job, or win as in get to run away and let someone else clean up the Augean stables?

As I stated, I wonder when Boris will decide that being PM is not as much fun as he thought it would be, and wants out...

 

[abaddon]

As I stated, I wonder when Boris will decide that being PM is not as much fun as he thought it would be, and wants out...

HE wont so long as he remains in thrall to Cummings.

 

[psionl0]

It seems likely the speaker isn't going to allow it because its simply presenting the same thing to the house again.

Deciding what may or may not be debated seems to be an extraordinary power the speaker has.

As I understand it, in the Australian parliament, a member would make a proposal in the form of "I seek leave to . . ." and the speaker then asks the house "Is leave granted?"

If the standing orders (rules which govern parliament) get in the way of some debate then a member may propose suspending standing orders - something which the speaker again asks the house to approve.

 

[ceptimus]

It's a good thing that parliament aren't allowed to debate the same thing twice. Were it not for this rigidly enforced rule, we might have had the situation where the same old arguments about Brexit would have been repeated over and over again for the last three years.

 

[Lothian]

It's a good thing that parliament aren't allowed to debate the same thing twice. Were it not for this rigidly enforced rule, we might have had the situation where the same old arguments about Brexit would have been repeated over and over again for the last three years.

I agree with you for once. Brexit should now be scrapped, taken off the agenda and never mentioned again.

 

[Dave Rogers]

How about all the Remain supporting politicians, including the Prime Minister and Chancellor at the time, plus Corbyn himself, who all promised sincerely that the referendum would NOT be rerun, and that it would be a once in a generation event?

Tu quoque is not a valid argument. I think it's a bit sad for both sides, though, that the best anyone can argue any more is "your lot are as much a bunch of stinking liars as mine," whether or not that's actually true.

And it's a bit of a stretch to call Jeremy Corbyn a "Remain supporting politician."

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

If there was a vote of no confidence, would Johnson win?

Since Johnson's best outcome from a VONC at the moment would be to lose, which would count as a win, the answer to that question is literally undefinable.

Dave