Disappointing (the ditch part, I mean).
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Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero
- Thread starter Squeegee Beckenheim
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Disappointing (the ditch part, I mean).
catsmate
No longer the 1
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It (party list D'Hondt PR not STV) is also used in European elections. AMS is used for the Scottish and Welsh assemblies. Proper PR-STV is used for the NI assembly, NI and Scottish local elections.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
I think Boris is an honorable man who keeps his promises.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Careful now, these could be interpreted as death threats and used to demonstratie that Remainers are every bit as bad as swivel-eyed Brexiteers who say all Remainer MP's are traitors who should hang from the nearest lamp post.
Dave
Squeegee Beckenheim
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I'm not sure that's true.
Firstly, while you're right that most people are going to be unhappy no matter what the outcome, that doesn't mean that all outcomes are identical on that score. Just revoking Article 50 would be met with more opposition than even revoking it after being elected on a platform of revoking it - to use the unlikely example of the Lib Dems getting a majority.
It emphatically would not put the issue to rest. The fact that it can be said that it's a "pause" while a deal is worked out makes little difference.
Secondly, it's been three years already. It shouldn't have taken that long to negotiate a deal in the first place, had May, Johnson, etc. been willing to actually negotiate. But May had her "red lines" and Johnson's dog ate his homework. May's deal is as good as it's going to get from that direction.
A deal from Labour would likely be softer, but if both sides negotiated in good faith, there should be no reason not to hammer it out within a year. Especially as the softer the Brexit, the easier it should be, given that some of the conditions would simply become "stay exactly as they already are", and others would have examples of countries who already have the same or very similar deals. It wouldn't be the "we want absolutely nothing to do with you whatsoever, but we still want all the rights and privileges that being a member affords us" that we've had up to now.
The trick isn't to give everybody what they want - because that is impossible. The trick is to find a solution that most people will be able to live with, even if they're not happy. In a polarised environment like this, just flat-out handing a victory (or what would be painted as an feel like a victory to the opposition) to one side without even a second referendum would absolutely not accomplish that. This nonsense would then just continue for the next few decades.
A second referendum wouldn't be a perfect solution, of course, but it would definitely be superior. This is because the last few years have seen the Leavers push the narrative of "the will of the people" over and over and over again. It's practically a religious mantra at this point. So that rather takes the wind out of the sails of any protests against the result of a second referendum. This is doubly true if said referendum is legally binding - which also helps to protect against the corruption that occurred during the campaigning for the first one.
What is probably the best somewhat realistic solution, however, is for there to be a general election and a coalition government formed. That government negotiates a very soft Brexit with terms drawn from and publicly associated with the "Leave" campaign. This Brexit not only mostly leaves us in the same position that we are currently in, but has a 5-10 year transition period built-in. Politicians at this point declare Brexit to be done and stop talking about it publicly. The press stop covering it all together, because it's yesterday's news. The boring business of actually transitioning is done by civil servants out of the public eye, and done with a view to having the impact on the UK be as little as possible - perhaps even renegotiating or abandoning all together some of the terms of the agreement.
We end up basically still in the EU, but in a way that allows everybody to feel like they've won and haven't lost any face, and allows the whole of the UK to just put it behind us and pretend like it's all finished and done with in a satisfactory manner. And, with all this, in a couple of decades time, should a future government want to re-join the EU, they can do so quickly and quietly with a minimum amount of fuss.
That wouldn't please everybody, but it would probably be palatable enough to enough people that everybody could move on. I also think there's enough of a feeling of "OMG, get on with it, already!" that most people would be willing to grab hold of an ending that they could, at least, convince themselves is sort of like what they wanted.
Even people like Farage might be able to use it as enough of a jumping-off point to abandon UK politics and go and become a talk show host in the US.
This would all take the stars aligning, politicians working together to an unprecedented degree, and some goodwill all around, but it's at least plausible that this would be one way to actually get out of this mess with a minimum of long-term damage and in a way that the public won't get too riled up about.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
Yeah. The idea that Brits can only cope with FPTP is silly, although maybe there's a correlation between those afflicted and a tendency to support Leave....
You should post that you don't agree with my reasons, not that they are irrational. The first is a statement of your opinion, the second is a lie unless you can demonstrate in a rational manner that my reasons were irrational.
You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to make up your own facts.
He's been spectacularly rude to me - accusing me of irrational thought. I don't think I was rude to him - I just pointed out his errors.
Lothian
should be banned
You should state that it is your opinion that he should post that he doesn't agree with your reasons. Or perhaps not. Most people are smart enough to work out when people are giving an opinion and when they are giving facts.
We know that practically everyone else here thinks your opinions are irrational. Thay does not make them so as a fact rather it only makes them so as a very high probability.
Lothian
should be banned
Why not use the "remoaner" insult you usually do.
In contrast, it shouldn't be hard at all to admit and accept that you lost a democratic vote, but it seems to be something that remainers are spectacularly incapable of.
Squeegee Beckenheim
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ceptimus, as you're back posting again, perhaps you could answer my question that you previously ignored - why do you feel that the government not delivering Brexit on the 31st of October is a bigger threat to democracy by not delivering on a promise than not giving £350m a week to the NHS from the funds saved by exiting the EU would be?
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Squeegee Beckenheim
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On what basis do you claim that 52% of voters in the referendum voted for a hard Brexit?
Yes there is.
The equivalent of taking a vote for Leave in the referendum as a vote for No Deal would be taking a vote for Remain as meaning "join Schengen and the Euro".
Consequently a "soft remain" is simply the status quo.
3point14
Pi
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It's the lesser known "Disney Clause". If you really, really, really believe with all your heart...
More Brexit good news, fewer pointy-heads and Poindexters as a result of Brexit:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50044659
Looking more and more like, post-Brexit, the UK will be competing with the developing world on price and not the developed world on productivity and innovation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50044659
Looking more and more like, post-Brexit, the UK will be competing with the developing world on price and not the developed world on productivity and innovation
And now some more from the irony page:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/22/section/55/enacted
Could make Johnson's deal illegal
I guess Johnson voted for this too.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/22/section/55/enacted
Could make Johnson's deal illegal
I guess Johnson voted for this too.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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I believe that other than Westminster and E&W locals, all UK elections use some form of PR.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Looks like Boris Johnson is attempting to breach section 55 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018
The GRUANIAD reports Jolyon Maughm QC is lodging a writ with the Scottish Courts ruling the 'deal' unlawful. It looks like, from the wording, to indeed be so, if Northern Ireland is in the Customs Union whilst the rest is out.
Maybe that is what is the hold up regarding VAT according to the EU.
Never trust last minute offers anyway. 'Hurry! Offer Ends Today!'
No, let us not be rushed.
The GRUANIAD reports Jolyon Maughm QC is lodging a writ with the Scottish Courts ruling the 'deal' unlawful. It looks like, from the wording, to indeed be so, if Northern Ireland is in the Customs Union whilst the rest is out.
Maybe that is what is the hold up regarding VAT according to the EU.
Never trust last minute offers anyway. 'Hurry! Offer Ends Today!'
No, let us not be rushed.
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