Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[The Don]

2016: ‘An extra £350m a week for the NHS.’

2019: The NHS is ‘on the table’ for trade agreements.

And yet there are still people who voted Leave who deny they were conned.

Tbh, those two things are not necessarily mutually incompatible. If US healthcare companies manage to get their claws into the NHS I can see costs rise, for a reduced service, so that £350m a week won't even start to cover the funding gap

There may be a minority of people with a different set of reasons for leaving the EU but to me it seems that the vast majority of Leave supporters aren't so much worried about a loss of sovereignty (they're willing to give up pretty much anything for a sweet trade deal with the US), they just don't want to have to deal with people who speak "foreign"

 

[Information Analyst]

Tbh, those two things are not necessarily mutually incompatible. If US healthcare companies manage to get their claws into the NHS I can see costs rise, for a reduced service, so that £350m a week won't even start to cover the funding gap

There may be a minority of people with a different set of reasons for leaving the EU but to me it seems that the vast majority of Leave supporters aren't so much worried about a loss of sovereignty (they're willing to give up pretty much anything for a sweet trade deal with the US), they just don't want to have to deal with people who speak "foreign"

Time and time again we come back to the reality that the majority of people who voted for Leave had simply fallen for the press and politicians' lies, and have little concept of what Brexit actually means.

I used to say that a lot of them won't truly get it until their standing in line a British airports, returning from holidays on the continent, and being incensed that they can't bring back the same amount of booze and fags as previously. Now it seem it'll be standing in A&E, being asked to cough up cash or insurance documents, bewildered that the NHS is no longer FatPoD...

 

[The Don]

Time and time again we come back to the reality that the majority of people who voted for Leave had simply fallen for the press and politicians' lies, and have little concept of what Brexit actually means.

I used to say that a lot of them won't truly get it until their standing in line a British airports, returning from holidays on the continent, and being incensed that they can't bring back the same amount of booze and fags as previously. Now it seem it'll be standing in A&E, being asked to cough up cash or insurance documents, bewildered that the NHS is no longer FatPoD...

I doubt even then that they'll find a link to Brexit, or at least they'll not associate it with their own choices. Instead the lines will be due to the EU being big meanies to the UK post-Brexit and the fact that healthcare in the UK is now insurance-based system is some kind of exciting initiative introduced by our new BFFs from across the pond.

 

[McHrozni]

Bolded sentence is simply wrong on all levels. That is just a lie perpetuated by ultranationalists like Mečiár (so he could get more power for corruption) or by certain Tiso.

Truth is that if it weren't for us, Slovaks would be speaking Hungarian and be part of Hungary and their "great" language would ben nothing more than footnote because it was barely surviving in few villages in mountains.

Their language was not only official language of Czechoslovakia, but radio and later television had number of requirements with regard to representation of Slovak language in their broadcast. And it was thought even in Czech schools.

Furthermore we sent loads of money to upgrade everything and certain necessary professions like teachers were often sent to Slovakia.

Thanks for not perpetuating that Mečiar's lie anymore.

Mm, yea. No offense, I don't have a personal horse in the race, but your response makes me think there is something to the claim.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Tbh, those two things are not necessarily mutually incompatible. If US healthcare companies manage to get their claws into the NHS I can see costs rise, for a reduced service, so that £350m a week won't even start to cover the funding gap

Hm.

We send £350m a week to the EU. Let's send it to USA instead!

It has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Have you checked the European election results recently?

Over 72% of the seats went to parties who agree Europe should become a proper state someday down the line. Not too soon, but not in the unfantomably different future either - a 2-5 decades or so, other questions depending.

72% is not a definition of "nobody" I'm familiar with.

McHrozni

That stat appears to be an outright lie. If not you are going to have to back it up with some manifesto pledges from elected members/parties that say what you claim.

All the former Yugoslavian ones, so I make that 5(?).
(Haven't looked at a map to count them)



"This committee would better spend its time investigating the waste of public money by well-known MEPs," (Farage) added.

I assume he was taking the mick with that line?
How much has he cost the public as an MEP that never bothers to turn up?

It's a red herring anyway. How they came about doesn't matter. The fact is Latvia (for example) is not suddenly going to turn round and say 'remember how we finally got our nationhood? We want to give it away now'

And there aren't a hell of a lot of examples of democratic states voting to cease to exist either are there? Not too many examples of countries gaining independence and then deciding to give it away later.

The trend in Europe is to more, smaller nations. Nobody is giving away their nationhood anytime soon. In fact quite the opposite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

The idea that wanting to be part of the EU, seeing benefit in it, even desiring to strengthen it and deepen the links is the same as wanting to see an EU superstate is simply incorrect.

 

[Klimax]

Mm, yea. No offense, I don't have a personal horse in the race, but your response makes me think there is something to the claim.

McHrozni

There is nothing to that claim. There are very few claims that can beat Brexit lies in absence of truth. You managed to find one of them. But then, outside world is pretty ignorant of us, so not that surprising. (Sadly, knowledge of outside world is not in better shape here either nowadays)

 

[Nessie]

A list of polls about voting intentions for Westminster (as in if there was a General Election, who would you vote for?);

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

Labour and the Conservatives are haemorrhaging support. The Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Greens are gaining. Change have failed to get off the ground and UKIP is dying out.

 

[McHrozni]

That stat appears to be an outright lie. If not you are going to have to back it up with some manifesto pledges from elected members/parties that say what you claim.

It's the combination of the seats belonging to EPP, ALDE and S&D:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_People's_Party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_Liberals_and_Democrats_for_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Alliance_of_Socialists_and_Democrats

Plus a few others who are also on board. All agree with further integration of the EU. In the long term this means a unified European superstate. Not tommorow of course, but over a longer period of time. I keep repeating this is a project that will take a long period of time because quite a few posters seem to think it's a 2020-ish project. It is not. I doubt it will happen before 2040s and it will happen in small steps, we won't even know when did we cease to be a union of states and became a state with federal subjects.

It's a red herring anyway. How they came about doesn't matter. The fact is Latvia (for example) is not suddenly going to turn round and say 'remember how we finally got our nationhood? We want to give it away now'

And there aren't a hell of a lot of examples of democratic states voting to cease to exist either are there? Not too many examples of countries gaining independence and then deciding to give it away later.

Yea. Did I mention it's going to take at least 20 more years yet? I think I better mention it again: it's a long term project. A long term project, that will take decades more, in small steps. A long term project, ok?

The trend in Europe is to more, smaller nations. Nobody is giving away their nationhood anytime soon. In fact quite the opposite.

I'm reasonably sure Scotts would agree they aren't the same nation as the English are. Or that Austrians could well be the same nation as Germans, if it wasn't for a historic Austrian immigrant to Germany.

Nation and state were never synonimous. Yes, most states are built along national lines. No, it's not a coincidence. No, it doesn't mean anything when you're discussing a union of European states (and nations, as it were).

The idea that wanting to be part of the EU, seeing benefit in it, even desiring to strengthen it and deepen the links is the same as wanting to see an EU superstate is simply incorrect.

Did I mention yet this is a long term project whose small steps of further integration will cause an EU superstate - whether desired or not?

Just in case I didn't, it's a long term project. Many, many small steps and a few big ones (fiscal union) will slowly guide the EU towards becoming a superstate and we probably won't be able to definitively say there is any single point before which EU was a union of states and after which it was a superstate. The key here is it will take a long time yet and the progress will be nearly invisible as you live through it, did I mention this before?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

There is nothing to that claim. There are very few claims that can beat Brexit lies in absence of truth. You managed to find one of them. But then, outside world is pretty ignorant of us, so not that surprising. (Sadly, knowledge of outside world is not in better shape here either nowadays)

Again, no offense, but if you were a Slovak I would take your word for it. A Czech may have a different perspective, which could be in line with reality or it could be out of touch with reality as Ress-Mogg is.

McHrozni

 

[Nessie]

Peterborough by election;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48532869

Labour 31% down 17%
Brexit 29% up 29%
Cons 21% down 25%
Lib Dem 12% up 9%

I do not think Corbyn will keep up his demand for a General Election. Labour and the Cons must be seriously worried now.

 

[McHrozni]

A list of polls about voting intentions for Westminster (as in if there was a General Election, who would you vote for?);

https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/

Labour and the Conservatives are haemorrhaging support. The Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Greens are gaining. Change have failed to get off the ground and UKIP is dying out.

Whoa. Latest poll:

Brexit party: 26%
Labour: 22%
Con: 17%
LibDem: 16%
Green: 11%
UKIP, ChUK: 1% each

Brutal. However it looks slightly anomalous compared to other polls. If you did a poll of polls I think Labour would come out ahead of Brexit party as the main opposition. Tories might be wiped out and LibDems could be the kingmakers of the minority government. It depends a bit on how votes are distributed. I think LibDems and Greens would take may seats representing cities while Brexit, Labour and Con would fight Hunger games over what's left.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Peterborough by election;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48532869

Labour 31% down 17%
Brexit 29% up 29%
Cons 21% down 25%
Lib Dem 12% up 9%

I do not think Corbyn will keep up his demand for a General Election. Labour and the Cons must be seriously worried now.

Would you say his leadership of the opposition was better than Theresa May as Prime Minister, worse than that trainwreck, or about the same?

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

Peterborough by election;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48532869

Labour 31% down 17%
Brexit 29% up 29%
Cons 21% down 25%
Lib Dem 12% up 9%

I do not think Corbyn will keep up his demand for a General Election. Labour and the Cons must be seriously worried now.

Yes, a very interesting result.

Personally, I don't think that Jeremy Corbyn will change his tune about a General Election because the alternatives are to go "full Brexit" (which he wants but doesn't want to carry the can for) or support a second referendum (which he seems to have little or no appetite for).

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Yes, a very interesting result.

Personally, I don't think that Jeremy Corbyn will change his tune about a General Election because the alternatives are to go "full Brexit" (which he wants but doesn't want to carry the can for) or support a second referendum (which he seems to have little or no appetite for).

Looks to me like Corbyn's stance is "Get me into power, and I'll think about it". He's just another power-hungry politician, disguised as a slightly bewildered geography teacher.

 

[The Don]

Would you say his leadership of the opposition was better than Theresa May as Prime Minister, worse than that trainwreck, or about the same?

McHrozni

I would say far worse.

Theresa May stepped willingly into a difficult position and since that moment has seemingly done everything in her power to make that situation worse. Sure she has made an absolute hash of it but she picked up a bad hand (in bridge terms 0-6 points and no particularly long suits).

Jeremy Corbyn OTOH was dealt 23 points and a six card heart suit but has somehow managed to find himself in a seven clubs contract doubled and vulnerable and missing two aces

 

[Explorer]

Whoa. Latest poll:

Brexit party: 26%
Labour: 22%
Con: 17%
LibDem: 16%
Green: 11%
UKIP, ChUK: 1% each

Brutal. However it looks slightly anomalous compared to other polls. If you did a poll of polls I think Labour would come out ahead of Brexit party as the main opposition. Tories might be wiped out and LibDems could be the kingmakers of the minority government. It depends a bit on how votes are distributed. I think LibDems and Greens would take may seats representing cities while Brexit, Labour and Con would fight Hunger games over what's left.

McHrozni

This is a nationally sampled poll, and so would not necessarily reflect what happened locally in Peterborough yesterday, where it seems Labour focused on local issues and not Brexit, a good strategy seeing as the Brexit National party had no manifesto.

The opinion polls are still reflecting the protest votes for and against Brexit, but in a general election, all manifestos would be scrutinised and will again detract from Brexit issues.

 

[Klimax]

Again, no offense, but if you were a Slovak I would take your word for it. A Czech may have a different perspective, which could be in line with reality or it could be out of touch with reality as Ress-Mogg is.

McHrozni

I stated facts not opinion. Nothing to do with "perspective". Usual Mečiar supporter have a lot in common with usual Brexiter: Ignoring facts, experts and reality.

 

[McHrozni]

I would say far worse.

Theresa May stepped willingly into a difficult position and since that moment has seemingly done everything in her power to make that situation worse. Sure she has made an absolute hash of it but she picked up a bad hand (in bridge terms 0-6 points and no particularly long suits).

Jeremy Corbyn OTOH was dealt 23 points and a six card heart suit but has somehow managed to find himself in a seven clubs contract doubled and vulnerable and missing two aces

Damn.

Now I need to learn Bridge Unless you can make this into a Prefferance parable?

I agree with what I think it says, he played his hand far worse

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

This is a nationally sampled poll, and so would not necessarily reflect what happened locally in Peterborough yesterday, where it seems Labour focused on local issues and not Brexit, a good strategy seeing as the Brexit National party had no manifesto.

The opinion polls are still reflecting the protest votes for and against Brexit, but in a general election, all manifestos would be scrutinised and will again detract from Brexit issues.

Yes, it's a national poll, the voting intent of Britain at this point. Content-free Brexit party in the lead, with Labour behind.

Par for the course in these times I'm afraid.

McHrozni