Breaking News! 9/11 Mastermind confesses

Whhhooooaaaa... What dark recess of your brain pooted out the notion that this was even remotely possible?
If it was possible, you'd certainly think that the Soviet Union, with a larger population than the US and compulsory military service, would have beaten the Afghan mujahideen rebels in short order...
 
that the Soviet Union, with a larger population than the US

You might be surprised that it's not that different (well when you get numbers that big)

In 1990 ( a year after the Soviet withdrawal) the Soviet Union's Population was 290 million. In 2000, the US Population was 281 million
 
Last edited:
You might be surprised that it's not that different (well when you get numbers that big)

In 1990 ( a year after the Soviet withdrawal) the Soviet Union's Population was 290 million. In 2000, the US Population was 281 million
You're right, the word "much" in terms of total population was incorrect. Still, considering compulsory military service, even a 10- to 30-million difference in total population equals a huge boost in terms of the military population.
 
Yeah no problem. Easy.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you? Do you even know what sort of terrain they were working in?






WTF are you talking about? They had the resources. It was all in place. And the politicians pulled it, for PR reasons. The politicians let them get away.






Garbage. Tora Bora was captured in December 2001, almost 2 years before Iraq. There wasn't a lack of troops in Afghanistan. They had Marines ready to go into Tora Bora. They were equipped, and ready. The mission was scrubbed.

-Gumboot
Gumboot, whith that kind of strategic thinking, it confirms that the US are gonna loose pretty much all the wars they started.

They pulled it for PR reasons: letting 3000+ troops die doesn't seem to be such a PR problem... Having 50 troops die vs. getting UBL, hum.. let me think...

Go ask field ommanders in AF in they think the lack of troops in 2001-2002 explains why they failed to secure the country and was the source for Taliban revival. You'll see what they say.

You're not very open minded on 9/11, but on military strategy you're eben worse.

Busherie
 
Evidence (i'm sad I have to show evidence, everybody show know this by now)
And I'm sad to have to tell you that an anonymous source cited by a reporter isn't evidence.

Concerning Fouda's article, I think after a thorough analysis we can assume that he lied about the date of the interview to protect himself.
Sounds like a good idea.
 
A minor note here, busherie: I know you didn't make the flip of KSM's comparison portrait, but in general doing so is a bad idea. Human faces are often not nearly as bilaterally symmetrical as we suppose.
 
And I'm sad to have to tell you that an anonymous source cited by a reporter isn't evidence.

Sounds like a good idea.
Hey, I have a good idea! Why not let international human rights NGOs go to Guantanamo and see if the guys in there are tortured or not? (i mean let them enter and see what they want, because they tried the "guided tour" option for the UN who refused)

Oh no, I forgot: it threatens national security. Too bad for the truth!

_______________

Concerning Fouda's article, the "i lied twice to protect myself" would be convincing if he hadn't showed up with the jehad.net communiqué mentionning the interview in May... when he said afterwards it was april 22nd.".

Showdown, I'll tell you what I think happened:

- the attacks were carried out by the 19 guys.

- willing to find a perfect "mastermind" that could be the big operationnal bad guy. The US govt starts looking for one (UBL could have been fine but except that video there was no evidence he had planned the attacks "from A to Z", plus that guy is useful to us man!)

- then they hear about this interview by Fouda (in june, may, april?) where big shot KSM says "i dit it"

- they capture him in march 2003

- they torture him at will, so much that he confesses pretty much all the attacks since the mid-1990's (that explains the super substitution for testimony at Moussaoui's trial that fits all the holes)

Result: big success for the propaganda --> we found the "big shot" and we got him (and they add: forget about UBL!, we need him to justify the war on terror, geez!)
 
- the attacks were carried out by the 19 guys.

- willing to find a perfect "mastermind" that could be the big operationnal bad guy. The US govt starts looking for one (UBL could have been fine but except that video there was no evidence he had planned the attacks "from A to Z", plus that guy is useful to us man!)

- then they hear about this interview by Fouda (in june, may, april?) where big shot KSM says "i dit it"

- they capture him in march 2003

- they torture him at will, so much that he confesses pretty much all the attacks since the mid-1990's (that explains the super substitution for testimony at Moussaoui's trial that fits all the holes)

Result: big success for the propaganda --> we found the "big shot" and we got him (and they add: forget about UBL!, we need him to justify the war on terror, geez!)


So there was 19 guys out there willing to sacrifice themselves in order to attack the US?

So there could be another 19 out there willing to do the same?

So, just run by me again your thoughts on the 'need' to justify the 'war on terra'?

Regardless of whether you believe the US Govt encouraged or helped those terrorists to attack the US, the fact remains that it did happen and 19 fanatical people were prepared to do it. So there IS a threat out there, we can at least agree on that?

You are then faced with establishing just how much the US govt helped (or failed to hinder) those terrorists.

If you're steeped in woo you might believe that they were just pawns... a shopfront display while the real evil doers secretly took control of the aircraft (including/not including flight 93, depending on your level of paranoia) and crashed them into the targets.

If you've managed to keep your nostrils slightly above the woo, you might believe that the US govt gave the nod to ....someone (who? would the terrorists have still gone ahead with their suicide mission if the 'great satan' (no, not proctor&gamble) had sanctioned it?) and allowed the US air defence system to fail on that day, trusting, of course, that the terrorists wouldn't lose nerve during the mission and cock it up leading to the govt evil doers practically shouting over the radio "C'mon my son!" in order to encourage them in their task.

If you've stepped out of the woo, but it's still dripping from your nether regions, you might believe that the US govt sat back and decided to allow the suicide mission to go ahead with a minimum of interference and just let the chips fall wherever they did. They might have been a bit slow picking up the phone (or moving out of the classroom) on the day, but of course they'd be all puckered up wondering if maybe the intel about the attacks was as accurate as they hoped and that the attack was as they had been told it would be and not some other dastardly plan which might have resulted in even more massive loss of life and, in all probability themselves being kicked out of office.

But if you're free of woo and have a fairly balanced worldview, one in which confusion leads to mistakes and sometimes hard things are easy and simple things are hard, you probably feel the US govt did as much as they could, but it wasn't enough. You may feel that 9/11 was a wake up call for a country which had grown complacent about it's own safety.

And you may just conclude that 19 hijackers did manage to carry out in the US an act of terror which had never been carried out before and that those hijackers were part of a terrorist network based in afghanistan and headed by OBL (whom the US govt had been attempting to apprehend for years and had imposed sanctions on afghanistan through the UN in order to have them hand him over peacefully prior to 9/11).
 
KSM admitted to being behind the 9/11 attacks before being captured so whether or not he was tortured while at Gitmo is irrelevant.

OBL admitted being behind 9/11. He has never been at Gitmo or any other US facility. Its always been alledged OBL would be captured at a politically convienant time for Bush. Hasn't happaned yet.

There is plenty of evidence that Ramsi Youseff was behind the 1993 WTC bombing including his admission. His admission was not forced by torture. His uncle is KSM.

Here is an interview of a participant in the 1993 WTC bombing. Notice he was not tortured to get the interview.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/31/60minutes/main510795.shtml
 
Last edited:
You're right, the word "much" in terms of total population was incorrect. Still, considering compulsory military service, even a 10- to 30-million difference in total population equals a huge boost in terms of the military population.

I'm no expert on the Soviet military, but that which I have heard is that, yes of course service was compulsory. It was also for 2 years, with very little reason for remaining longer. Hence, their army (sorry, I mean military, my dad was in the Army, so I always think of that) was very VERY short on experienced non-commissioned officers.

It's pretty universally agreed that the NCO's really run the army. The Soviet military just wasn't that well-run.

Please, let me reiterate my ignorance of specifics.
 
Last edited:
I'm no expert on the Soviet military, but that which I have heard is that, yes of course service was compulsory. It was also for 2 years, with very little reason for remaining longer. Hence, their army (sorry, I mean military, my dad was in the Army, so I always think of that) was very VERY short on experienced non-commissioned officers.

It's pretty universally agreed that the NCO's really run the army. The Soviet military just wasn't that well-run.

Please, let me reiterate my ignorance of specifics.
No, you're right on all counts. Again, my point was simply that the Soviet Union always had a higher military population than that of the US after the US ended the draft. Thus, as it relates to this issue, the Soviets would have been able - in theory - to deploy larger numbers of troops in an effort to accomplish the earlier proposed [untenable] mission of cutting off all the escape routes of Afghan mountain terrorists/militia/freedom fighters (depending on whose side you're on, of course ;)).

The fact that they didn't manage to do so, and in fact ended up "defeated" (definitions of such vary, depending on whom you talk to), speaks to the difficulty of fighting against guerillas in mountainous terrain with which said guerillas are intimately familiar, difficulties which would similarly cause problems for the US military when trying to capture Osama and his merry band.

Bottom line: There seems to be a belief among some that capturing OBL should have been "easy" and that there are sinister reasons for why we haven't done so. I reject that notion as unrealistic.
 
No, you're right on all counts. Again, my point was simply that the Soviet Union always had a higher military population than that of the US after the US ended the draft. Thus, as it relates to this issue, the Soviets would have been able - in theory - to deploy larger numbers of troops in an effort to accomplish the earlier proposed [untenable] mission of cutting off all the escape routes of Afghan mountain terrorists/militia/freedom fighters (depending on whose side you're on, of course ;)).

The fact that they didn't manage to do so, and in fact ended up "defeated" (definitions of such vary, depending on whom you talk to), speaks to the difficulty of fighting against guerillas in mountainous terrain with which said guerillas are intimately familiar, difficulties which would similarly cause problems for the US military when trying to capture Osama and his merry band.

Bottom line: There seems to be a belief among some that capturing OBL should have been "easy" and that there are sinister reasons for why we haven't done so. I reject that notion as unrealistic.

Ah, now I see. And I agree about the difficulty. Who was that jerk who was hiding in the woods in North Carolina, for crying out loud, that it took them forever to find. One guy (or a few guys) can hide almost anywhere, being determined enough and staying off the cell-phone
 
Busherie's boring political vision of terrorism

If you've stepped out of the woo, but it's still dripping from your nether regions, you might believe that the US govt sat back and decided to allow the suicide mission to go ahead with a minimum of interference and just let the chips fall wherever they did. They might have been a bit slow picking up the phone (or moving out of the classroom) on the day, but of course they'd be all puckered up wondering if maybe the intel about the attacks was as accurate as they hoped and that the attack was as they had been told it would be and not some other dastardly plan which might have resulted in even more massive loss of life and, in all probability themselves being kicked out of office.

But if you're free of woo and have a fairly balanced worldview, one in which confusion leads to mistakes and sometimes hard things are easy and simple things are hard, you probably feel the US govt did as much as they could, but it wasn't enough. You may feel that 9/11 was a wake up call for a country which had grown complacent about it's own safety.

And you may just conclude that 19 hijackers did manage to carry out in the US an act of terror which had never been carried out before and that those hijackers were part of a terrorist network based in afghanistan and headed by OBL (whom the US govt had been attempting to apprehend for years and had imposed sanctions on afghanistan through the UN in order to have them hand him over peacefully prior to 9/11).

Thanks for taking the time to write this post. It's interesting.

Question for you: were the attacks a pretext for going a lot further than just trying to UBL? In other words, were they a "chance" for the administration? Didn't they come at a very convenient time?

That is why, by nature, one has to ask: is it possible that they knew the attacks were coming, and they did nothing to stop them in order to take advantage of it?

Now, you say that the US had become complacent about its security. But didn't Clarke try to warn Rice, Cheney, and Bush? Why wouldn't they listen? In my view, the US are complacent because they let the roots of terrorism grow bigger and deeper:

- by supporting dictatorships: Egypt, Saudi Arabai, Jordan. These contries produced the terrorists. Why? Read the story of Sayed Al-Qutb, of Zawahiri. These mad men became what they are because they hate their governments, supported by the US. What happened in Iran in the last 70s will happen in these countries where radical political Islam is spreading. The same causes that led to the revolution in iran in 79 will produce the same effects in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, not to mention Pakistan.

- by ignoring that force alone cannot defeat radical islam. For its roots are misery, ignorance. The US (but also Europe) trade policies contribute to prevent poor countries from developing. As a matter of consequence, mark my words, terrorism will spread in Muslim Africa. Recent US action in Somalia is just the seed of future terrorism.

- last but not least, by ignoring that the Is-Pal conflict is the deep cancer that kills any progress in the Muslim world.


The US is of course not the only cause of terrorism. Actually, they are only seconday. It is a Hegelian rule of History that people, when they progress toward modernity, go through a deep crisis. As fertility rates go down, and litteracy rates go up, there is always in every country a deep crisis. This is due to the fact that people whowere earlier poor farmers, whose world was limited to their neighbour's fiel, is now opened for a new and dangerous thing: ideologies. The list is long:

- Europe: nationalism and eventually fascism
- US: civil war
- Russia: communism
- China: communism
- Japan: militarism

etc... If you check the figures (fertility, literacy) these crisis roughly happened at the same time: transition toward modenity.

So, that is precisely what the the majority of the muslim world is going throught right now. And, ironclly, the muslim transition so far proves a lot less violent, in terms of casualties, than let's say WWII!

What's my point?

Well my point is: we, developped and civilized nations, must understand that they are going through their crisis. It might take a few decades, but eventually it will be a lot smoother. Take Iran: paradoxically, even though Ahmadinejad is a mad bastard, the Iranians are almost through. (2,1 children per women, 95% literacy rate). On the other hand, you have Pakistan: our next bomb. When Musharaf blows up, we gonna have a lot of trouble (Pak has the nuke!)

So, what should we do? Well, simple thing: Do not throw fuel on the fire!!

But that's what the US are doing right now. It is understandable that they were pissed off about 9/11, and they attacked AF. Fine! But Iraq, for christ sake!!?!! What better way to throw fuel on the fire!

I will stop here, but I'm so sad that the US, this great nation, land of freedom and opportunity, sells its soul in a stupid and unwinnable "war".

And 9/11 was the beginning of this. When this is all over, we'll the immense waste that all was.



Busherie
 
They pulled it for PR reasons: letting 3000+ troops die doesn't seem to be such a PR problem... Having 50 troops die vs. getting UBL, hum.. let me think...
PR?! You wouldn't happen to be from the Bizarro World, would you?
 
Gumboot, whith that kind of strategic thinking, it confirms that the US are gonna loose pretty much all the wars they started.


I agree.



They pulled it for PR reasons: letting 3000+ troops die doesn't seem to be such a PR problem... Having 50 troops die vs. getting UBL, hum.. let me think...


They were anticipating exceedingly high casualties. In one day. As compared to 3000 over a number of years (and yes, the 3000 dead in Iraq is a MAJOR PR problem, as you bringing it up so conveniently demonstrates).



Go ask field ommanders in AF in they think the lack of troops in 2001-2002 explains why they failed to secure the country and was the source for Taliban revival. You'll see what they say.


I'm reading the autobiography RIGHT NOW of a Marine officer who was slated to be in the mission to Tora Bora. From his book:

The next morning, I was called to the COC for a brief. Our mission to Tora Bora was cancelled. No American forces would take part in the operation. Instead, our Afghan allies would do the job. There were already rumblings about most of the assembled fighters slipping away across the border into the wilds of Pakistan's North-West Fronteir Province. Colonel Waldhauser said that fear of casualties had prompted the cancellation at the highest levels of the U.S. government.
Back in the tower, Jim kicked the wall when I told him the news. 'Goddamn chicken**** decision. Casualties? What the **** do they think happened on 9/11? This is our chance to get those bastards.'
I agreed with him, and so did Staff Sergeant Marine. He heard us yelling on the tower and came up to see what was happening. 'Afghan allies? We don't have any Afghan allies. We got Afghans who'll do what we say if it helps them and if we pay them to do it. Bin Laden will trade 'em a goat and escape.'
With that mission went our dream of laying hands on America's most wanted man. But we felt relief, too. A winter fight in the high mountains against hardened mujahideen would have been ugly. They'd fought the Soviets on that ground for ten years. It was a measure of the mission's significance that the Marines knew all the dangers and still wished we'd gone.

Fick, Nathaniel. One Bullet Away, pg 138.

Want to try again?



You're not very open minded on 9/11, but on military strategy you're eben worse.


I think it's safe to say I know more about military strategy than you will ever learn in your entire lifetime. (By the way, the decision to scrub Tora Bora was a tactical one, not a strategic one).

-Gumboot
 
Hey, I have a good idea! Why not let international human rights NGOs go to Guantanamo and see if the guys in there are tortured or not? (i mean let them enter and see what they want, because they tried the "guided tour" option for the UN who refused)



The ICRC has visited Guantanamo Bay, and at the invitation of the US Government.

Want to dish up any more lies, Busherie?

-Gumboot
 
The ICRC has visited Guantanamo Bay, and at the invitation of the US Government.

Want to dish up any more lies, Busherie?

-Gumboot

ohh, Gumboot. Why denying the truth so hard?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4267297.stm

ICRC raises Guantanamo conditions

_40807723_guantanamoget_203.jpg
Some inmates have complained of physical abuse


The head of the International Committee for the Red Cross has met US President George W Bush to discuss concerns about detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

Jakob Kellenberger and Mr Bush talked about "ICRC concerns regarding US detention", the organisation said.


ICRC officials regularly visit the US naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where suspected al-Qaeda and Taleban members are being held.


A leaked report by the ICRC was said to have found evidence of torture tactics.


The committee said Mr Kellenberger had met President Bush in Washington on Monday.


Their discussion "focused on ICRC concerns regarding US detention" as well as the main challenges facing the organisation in armed conflicts around the world.


He also met US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and is due to meet Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Tuesday.

'Tantamount to torture'


The Geneva-based agency said it welcomed the opportunity to "raise these issues at the highest level and looks forward to strengthening its confidential dialogue with US authorities."


The Bush administration insists the 540 or so inmates of Guantanamo - many of whom have been held without charge since the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan - have been treated humanely.


Human rights organisations say prisoners have been mistreated, and released detainees have spoken of beatings and coerced confessions.


Last November, media reports quoted a leaked ICRC report, from a visit last summer, as saying practices at the camp were "tantamount to torture".
The ICRC, which normally refuses to comment publicly on its work to help victims of conflict, refused to "publicly confirm or deny" the reports.






And what about his guy? Oh no, he must be lying to. of course, he's a terrorist.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/19/news/hicks3.php


So, if the ICRC, detainees say what happens in Gitmo is torture, you still prefer to believe M. Bush & co?
 
ohh, Gumboot. Why denying the truth so hard?



You do realise that you've just proved yourself a liar, right?

You claimed NGO's were not given access to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This is false. The ICRC has had unhindered access since day one, and inspects the site regularly.

As for the contents of their reports, the ICRC does not disclose their fundings publicly, and I have no intention of trusting the unverifiable claims of the American media, who have a track record of lying and twisting the truth.

The ICRC has been working with the US Government on the issue, and continues to do so. This is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

-Gumboot
 
You do realise that you've just proved yourself a liar, right?

You claimed NGO's were not given access to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. This is false. The ICRC has had unhindered access since day one, and inspects the site regularly.

As for the contents of their reports, the ICRC does not disclose their fundings publicly, and I have no intention of trusting the unverifiable claims of the American media, who have a track record of lying and twisting the truth.

The ICRC has been working with the US Government on the issue, and continues to do so. This is the appropriate way of handling the situation.

-Gumboot
Wow, you seem a little bit tense here. The ICRC did say there is torture. Simple as that. Otherwise, if indeed the American media, who have a track record of lying and twisting the truth I'm sure the truthers will love to hear that.

As for me, I didn't lie, I made a mistake. Okay, I was wrong, some NGOs visited the site.

What about you: were you wrong? Is there torture in Gitmo?
 

Back
Top Bottom