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Bradley Manning Pleads Guilty

Professor Benkler is very wrong. People who leak or otherwise reveal classified information to individuals or organizations have been prosecuted many times in the decades (if not centuries) prior to the Manning case with no danger whatsoever to journalists (outside of not revealing their sources which is a different matter altogether and not germane to this case at all).

There is no ongoing prosecution of Wikileaks or the NYT by the US government which only proves the point and disproves professor Benklers claims.
 
I reject your characterization that I criticized Travis, although he has yet to say what he does want, as opposed to what he does not. I already said that I was happy for the new information, but I tire of having to type the same thing twice. With respect, it is WikiLeaks that is potentially the tangent. Let me remind you of the following exchange:
"The judge, Col. Denise Lind, asked the prosecutors a brief but revealing question: Would you have pressed the same charges if Manning had given the documents not to WikiLeaks but directly to the New York Times?

The prosecutor’s answer was simple: 'Yes Ma'am.'"

Professor Benkler continued, "But that 'Yes Ma'am' does something else: It makes the Manning prosecution a clear and present danger to journalism in the national security arena."

The extent of the leaks may be germane to the thread, but much of the verbiage of the last few pages is not IMO.

Do I have to AGAIN point out that the entity that Manning gave the information to is immaterial in this case, so long as it was not given directly to an enemy organization? The New York Times would NOT have been charged with anything (given the precedent set by the Pentagon Papers) because THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED AN ENEMY. Therefore, there is no "clear and present danger" to journalism unless a reporter manages to hack into the classified files and subsequently reports on them, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

Again, the person who leaked the information committed a clear violation of the law; the entity publishing it (such as the NYT or Wikileaks) has not. The only person who could be charged in this case at the moment IS Bradley Manning. I find it interesting that you're STILL quoting this Professor Benkler after I showed exactly how wrong he was to claim that the "aiding the enemy" article of the UCMJ could apply to civilians despite being part of the Uniform Code of MILITARY Justice. Perhaps you should find another source to quote.
 
I reject your characterization that I criticized Travis, although he has yet to say what he does want, as opposed to what he does not. I already said that I was happy for the new information, but I tire of having to type the same thing twice. With respect, it is WikiLeaks that is potentially the tangent. Let me remind you of the following exchange:
"The judge, Col. Denise Lind, asked the prosecutors a brief but revealing question: Would you have pressed the same charges if Manning had given the documents not to WikiLeaks but directly to the New York Times?

The prosecutor’s answer was simple: 'Yes Ma'am.'"

Professor Benkler continued, "But that 'Yes Ma'am' does something else: It makes the Manning prosecution a clear and present danger to journalism in the national security arena."

The extent of the leaks may be germane to the thread, but much of the verbiage of the last few pages is not IMO.
That doesn't even make sense. Why does it matter who he leaked to? The leaking is the crime. I have no idea how this is "a clear and present danger to journalism".
 
It seems to me that (besides missing the bigger picture altogether) you are mischaracterizing what Mr. Taylor said.

He said that a case could be made for a war crime being committed. That was your point after all, right?

What war crime could a case be made for? Please answer instead of deflecting.
 
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not settled

No, Article 104 does NOT apply to "any person". Hence the reason it is called the Uniform Code of MILITARY Justice; per USC Title 10, Chapter 47, Subchapter 1, Article 2, the following persons are subject to the UCMJ:

Only civilians who meet the criteria outlined above are subject to the UCMJ; otherwise, persons who engage in the sort of activity that Bradley Manning engaged in are charged under USC Title 18. And as I stated before, entities such as Wikileaks or the NYT are not considered to be "the enemy" or to have been "aiding the enemy" because they did not have access to the information until someone PROVIDED IT TO THEM. THOSE individuals, on the other hand, CAN be considered to be "aiding the enemy", even if only indirectly, because allowing such information to be released into the general public can have devastating effects under certain circumstances.

Your source is wrong and is engaging in the same sort of fearmongering that Roger Ramjets was guilty of earlier in this thread.
Professor Benkler wrote, "There has been some back and forth in military legal handbooks, cases, and commentary about whether and to what extent Section 104 in fact applies to civilians. Most recently, Justice Stevens' opinion in the Supreme Court case of Hamdan implies that Section 104 may in fact apply to civilians and be tried by military commissions. But this is not completely settled. Because the authorities are unclear, any competent lawyer today would have to tell a prospective civilian whistleblower that she may well be prosecuted for the capital offense of aiding the enemy just for leaking to the press." (highlighting mine) May I respectfully ask whether or not you have professional qualifications in this area?
 
The person leaking may be prosecuted, not the press that reports it. This is where the disconnect in you and your professor's reasoning is.
 
He said that a case could be made for a war crime being committed. That was your point after all, right?

What war crime could a case be made for? Please answer instead of deflecting.
You previously wrote, "What war crime was committed according to Taylor?" He did not say a war crime was committed. It is not a deflection to point out when someone makes an unintentional mischaracterization, as you did. I am afraid that I don't know more than what Mr. Taylor said in the link that I provided.
 
You previously wrote, "What war crime was committed according to Taylor?" He did not say a war crime was committed. It is not a deflection to point out when someone makes an unintentional mischaracterization, as you did. I am afraid that I don't know more than what Mr. Taylor said in the link that I provided.
A case could be made that Taylor is a lying muckraking POS.
 
not what I said

The person leaking may be prosecuted, not the press that reports it. This is where the disconnect in you and your professor's reasoning is.
I suggest you reread what I wrote. It seems to me that you are misinterpreting it.
 
You previously wrote, "What war crime was committed according to Taylor?" He did not say a war crime was committed. It is not a deflection to point out when someone makes an unintentional mischaracterization, as you did. I am afraid that I don't know more than what Mr. Taylor said in the link that I provided.

It is a deflection.

I know you can't answer it, as it's just a throwaway quote you use in order to muddy a discussion. You should stop doing that, as it brings nothing to the table. You can't even say if Mr Taylor still holds the same view. I mean, it doesn't get any weaker than that.

Please do better next time.
 
I suggest you reread what I wrote. It seems to me that you are misinterpreting it.

Ok, then lets clear this up. Are you or are you not claiming that the press can be prosecuted for reporting on something based upon a leak made by someone else (civilian or military)? This is a simple yes or no question. If your answer is no then no further reply is needed and I did misinterpret your comment. If your answer is anything other than no then you need to show some proof that this is the case. Note that a professors opinion is not proof.
 
Professor Benkler wrote, "There has been some back and forth in military legal handbooks, cases, and commentary about whether and to what extent Section 104 in fact applies to civilians. Most recently, Justice Stevens' opinion in the Supreme Court case of Hamdan implies that Section 104 may in fact apply to civilians and be tried by military commissions. But this is not completely settled. Because the authorities are unclear, any competent lawyer today would have to tell a prospective civilian whistleblower that she may well be prosecuted for the capital offense of aiding the enemy just for leaking to the press." (highlighting mine) May I respectfully ask whether or not you have professional qualifications in this area?

I personally do not; my area of expertise lies in military intelligence. HOWEVER... my unit has two J.A.G. officers attached to us, and I have put the question to them just now, as I am performing military duties currently. In their professional, legal opinion, Article 104 of the UCMJ only applies to civilians in those instances outlined under U.S.C. Title 10, Chapter 47. If the civilian in question is not affiliated with the US Military at the time they leaked the classified information (and again, this is according to two J.A.G. officers who have been to law school and whose job in the unit is to interpret military law), then they are charged under U.S.C. Title 18, which is US Federal Law, not the UCMJ. The civilian in question must have an identified, previously agreed upon affiliation with the US Military for the UCMJ to apply.

To the best of my knowledge, every civilian who has been accused of espionage or leaking classified information in the history of the United States has been tried under U.S.C. Title 18. There is no legal precedent currently to show that a civilian with no military affiliation has EVER been charged with violating Article 104 of the UCMJ; indeed, there is no indication that ANY civilian, military affiliation or no, has ever been charged with violating that article.

I would also point out that what Justice Stevens may or may not be implying is solely your interpretation. In addition, Hamdan was NOT being tried with a violation of Article 104; according to the documents released by the Supreme Court, he was being charged with one count of conspiracy. Conspiracy is a violation of Article 81, not Article 104. To add insult to injury, Hamdan is NOT a US Civilian who leaked classified information; he is a Yemeni national who was captured in 2001 and turned over to the US Military before being transported to Gitmo in 2002, the implication being that he was considered at the time an enemy combatant. That is extremely different from Manning's case, and is even further removed from the idea that US civilians might be subject to Article 104 of the UCMJ when there's a perfectly sound Federal law already enacted by U.S.C. Title 18 that they ARE subject to.

Maybe you should research a bit more before pulling examples out, just to be sure they're actually saying what you claim they say, hmm? It took me fifteen seconds on Google to find the actual opinion filed by Justice Stevens where the circumstances and charges against Hamdan were provided. I seriously suggest that you find a different expert to source, as this Professor Benkler is clearly biased and does not begin to understand military law.

ETA: Incidentally, the only mention of Article 104 I can find in the entire Stevens opinion refers to a fairly controversial view of Justice Thomas' wherein he apparently feels that Hamdan could conceivably be charged with them, but Stevens rightly points out that if the government felt that charge could have been laid at Hamdan's door, then they had sufficient time to include it in the charges that WERE laid against him, and they did not. Plus, "the crime of aiding the enemy may, in circumstances where the accused owes allegiance to the party whose enemy he is alleged to have aided, be triable by military commission pursuant to Article 104 of the UCMJ, 10 U. S. C. §904." Hamdan was a Yemeni national, as already noted, and owed no allegiance to the United States. Stevens did not agree with Justice Thomas' opinion, rightly so in my view, so again, the only thing Hamdan was charged with was conspiracy, which is an entirely different article of the UCMJ altogether.
 
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I made a correction, not a deflection.

It is a deflection.

I know you can't answer it, as it's just a throwaway quote you use in order to muddy a discussion. You should stop doing that, as it brings nothing to the table. You can't even say if Mr Taylor still holds the same view. I mean, it doesn't get any weaker than that.

Please do better next time.
It was you who got Mr. Taylor's views wrong, and your comment above makes wonder whether it was an accidental mistake or an attempt at a trick question of some sort. Moreover, the question of whether or not there was a war crime is not the right one for this thread. A better one is whether or not the video makes it easier to decide whether or not there was a war crime. Thanks, and have a nice day.
 
happy to oblige

Ok, then lets clear this up. Are you or are you not claiming that the press can be prosecuted for reporting on something based upon a leak made by someone else (civilian or military)? This is a simple yes or no question. If your answer is no then no further reply is needed and I did misinterpret your comment.
No.
 
It was you who got Mr. Taylor's views wrong,

No, I didn't. You intentionally misread me.

and your comment above makes wonder whether it was an accidental mistake or an attempt at a trick question of some sort.

It was a case of me showing without a doubt that you don't know what Taylor was talking about, and was using his quote as a form of deflection.

Moreover, the question of whether or not there was a war crime is not the right one for this thread.

You were the one who brought that up. You have only yourself to blame if you feel it doesn't belong.

A better one is whether or not the video makes it easier to decide whether or not there was a war crime. Thanks, and have a nice day.

This makes no sense.
 

Thank you. So where exactly is the "Clear and present danger" to the press that you alleged when you quoted professor Benkler:

"But that 'Yes Ma'am' does something else: It makes the Manning prosecution a clear and present danger to journalism in the national security arena."

You cannot have it both ways.
 
What war crime was committed according to Taylor?
OK, one last time. What Mr. Taylor actually said was that there was "a case to be made that a war crime may have been committed." The quote above comes from Wikipedia, but the source is behind a paywall, if I am not mistaken. However, the link I provided upthread does have a little bit more information from Mr. Taylor: "There are precedents of US soldiers being prosecuted for crimes in Iraq, for crimes of murder, rape and manslaughter. So it's not unprecedented that this could go forward both in military courts as well as in civilian criminal courts in the US." If you had said, "which war crime might have been committed," that would have been accurate, but what you actually did say put words into his mouth that don't belong there.

In message #123 I wrote, "One question is whether or not a war crime was committed..." What I meant was that one is in a better position to answer the question with the video than without, as I indicated in #173. Unless you withdraw your comments in #176, we have hit an impasse.
 
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OK, one last time. What Mr. Taylor actually said was that there was "a case to be made that a war crime may have been committed."

Yes, I know. I've quoted it back to you already.

My question was, what war crime could a case be made for?

The quote above comes from Wikipedia, but the source is behind a paywall, if I am not mistaken.

You are mistaken. It's available for free on the Al Jazeera website.

However, the link I provided upthread does have a little bit more information from Mr. Taylor: "There are precedents of US soldiers being prosecuted for crimes in Iraq, for crimes of murder, rape and manslaughter. So it's not unprecedented that this could go forward both in military courts as well as in civilian criminal courts in the US."

Well, given the evidence of the video, no case for war crime could be made for murder, rape or manslaughter. What we're seeing is combat footage and the accidental killing of civilians in a war zone.

If you had said, which war crime might have been committed, that would have been accurate, but what you actually did say put words into his mouth that don't belong there.

Stop deflecting.

In message #123 I wrote, "One question is whether or not a war crime was committed..." What I meant was that one is in a better position to answer the question with the video than without, as I indicated in #173. Unless you withdraw your comments in #176, we have hit an impasse.

Sure, I can agree with that. It's plain to see that no war crime was committed when looking at the video. That's not what Taylor meant, though. So, again, how can a case be made for either murder, rape or manslaughter given the footage we have seen?
 
novel

Thank you. So where exactly is the "Clear and present danger" to the press that you alleged when you quoted professor Benkler:
"Aiding the enemy is a broad and vague offense. In the past, it was used in hard-core cases where somebody handed over information about troop movements directly to someone the collaborator believed to be 'the enemy, to American POWs collaborating with North Korean captors, or to a German American citizen who was part of a German sabotage team during WWII. But the language of the statute is broad. It prohibits not only actually aiding the enemy, giving intelligence, or protecting the enemy, but also the broader crime of communicating—directly or indirectly—with the enemy without authorization. That's the prosecution's theory here: Manning knew that the materials would be made public, and he knew that Al Qaeda or its affiliates could read the publications in which the materials would be published. Therefore, the prosecution argues, by giving the materials to WikiLeaks, Manning was 'indirectly' communicating with the enemy. Under this theory, there is no need to show that the defendant wanted or intended to aid the enemy. The prosecution must show only that he communicated the potentially harmful information, knowing that the enemy could read the publications to which he leaked the materials." Link. This article portrays the prosecution's theory as novel. I am aware that one commenter here does not accept Professor Benkler as an authority in this matter, but I will not be able to address that question for some time.
 

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