Boy who cried wolf.

[Atlas]

Jim,

Throw a couple ideas of your own out. Give a frame to the debate you'd like to see focus on.

So far we've heard you say that Iran seeking to gain nukes is 'understandable'. The solution to the problem as you see it is for Israel to disarm. This may seem like common sense in your neighborhood but many of us don't feel like it's a workable plan in the middle east.

The debate here that I percieve is very much like you describe. Anything the Arabs do is understandable and anything Israel does is evil. Ok, that's a simplistic statement for one side of the debate but that is how it often seems framed to me.

The other side believes the Palestinian people are getting a raw deal because their leadership is a bunch of murdeous thugs who care less for their own national identity than they do for the destruction of Israel's. The fact that Israel plays hardball with them irritates several posters. But Israel wants a solution that insures its survival. Arafat stated repeatedly that he wants a solution that does not include Israel's survival.

In the face of that I've been able to overlook the settlement construction. Israel is trying to make it as difficult as possible for the Palestinian leadership to cling to their demands for Israel's destruction. They lose territory for their intransigence. Israel has tried negotiation but it fails, so they continue to play hardball. They may be hated but they are respected as the strong horse. In that region of the world weakness is punished mercilessly.

A 14 year old boy showed weakness in Iran during Ramadan and sneaked some food during a time of fasting. He was given 85 lashes, they beat him to death in the street. Israel knows who they are dealing with here. They, however, model David against Goliath and won't let themselves be treated as that Iranian boy was.

 

[The Don]

A 14 year old boy showed weakness in Iran during Ramadan and sneaked some food during a time of fasting. He was given 85 lashes, they beat him to death in the street. Israel knows who they are dealing with here. They, however, model David against Goliath and won't let themselves be treated as that Iranian boy was.

Do you have an independent source for that story or is it still the IranPress ?

 

[Atlas]

No. That's it. Do you have reason to suspect that source? I admit that I take it pretty much at face value. I don't think Iran has a completely free press. But I can't say for sure that the website originates in Iran. Also, I don't read Farsi so I can't follow thru on local Iranian news sites on the web.

 

[The Don]

The only reasons I have to question the veracity of the article or site are:

- Noone else has picked up what would be a shocking story
- The official Iranian news service is Iran-Press this is IranPressNews, possible passing off ?
- It only has articles which are strongly critical of Iran, not typical for an unbiased news source

At a guess, I'd say that the site was run by Iranian defectors. While I'm sure they're admirable people, their view of the current Iranian regime would be jaundiced to say the least.

If there was a supporting story from a mainstream news agency that would be a different kettle of fish.

 

[zenith-nadir]

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

Independent newspaper editors, publishers, and journalists in Iran are suffering arbitrary detention, assault and prosecution, Human Rights Watch charged in a report released today. These attacks have become more frequent during the presidency of Mohammad Khatami, as conservatives within the government have sought to suppress what has emerged as the major mobilizing tool of reformists.

Human Rights Watch today called on the Iranian government to replace the Press Law of 1985, which restricts freedom of press...

EU warns Iran over human rights

25/03/2004 - The European Union warned Tehran on Thursday that it had seen little progress in Iran's human rights dossier, which Brussels has effectively made a precondition to improved trade ties. Despite some improvement in women's rights, Whelan underlined that violations of human rights "continue to be widespread" in Iran, including torture, disappearances after arrests, arbitrary detention and political and religious repression.

Council on Foreign Relations

Iran continues to provide funding, weapons, training, and sanctuary to numerous terrorist groups based in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Israel has a record of launching attacks against its neighbours and things can change in foreign policy throughout time. Anyone having weaponsof mass destruction in the middle east is bad news, but at least if Iran also has a nuclear capability it may make Israel think twice about possibly using them.

Jim Bowen

 

[Mycroft]

That's bizarre. You ask me to show that there are issues between Iran and Israel and then you show that there are issues. I don't believe you want a debate. You're just a troll with something to prove. Sad.

Everybody here is well aware of Iranian hostility towards Israel. The issue here, if you claim Iran is justified in building nuclear weapons because of a threat from Israel, is if there is hostility towards Iran from Israel?

 

[Jim Bowen]

The problem is, Mycroft, that Israel has that record of attacking neighbouring powers. Considering the Iranian attitude to Israel, I doubt that they are totally sanguine about Israel possessing nukes. Although Dr Strangelove may laugh at this, MAD does appear to work. Personally, I'd prefer detente, peace and understanding, but this doesn't appear likely. It is an ideal solution, but as Atlas has said, it probably isn't workable in the Middle East. Heck of a pity.

I read about the 15 lashes, but can't remember where I saw it. Possibly on the Guardian's site.

Jim Bowen

 

[Mycroft]

Rafsanjani was arguing that MAD doesn’t apply because such an exchange wouldn’t destroy the Arab world.

If you’re thinking Rafsanjani is a nobody in Iran, read about him here and here.

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
Personally, I'd prefer detente, peace and understanding, but this doesn't appear likely. It is an ideal solution, but as Atlas has said, it probably isn't workable in the Middle East. Heck of a pity.

Who wouldn’t prefer peace? Peace is a goal, not a method. How about recognizing that Iran pursuing nuclear weapons doesn’t promote it?

Originally posted by Jim Bowen
I read about the 15 lashes, but can't remember where I saw it. Possibly on the Guardian's site.

It was 85 lashes. If it had been only 15, the boy might still be alive.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Not a bad reply, Mycroft. However, let me reitterate; Iran has made hostile noises about Israel, Israel has a record of attacking countries it is not keen on ('justifiably' could be argued about all day and I doubt if both sides of the divide in the Mid East see it the same way) and Israel has nuclear weapons, despite being a regional superpower. No wonder the people in Tehran would like parity. MAD may not worry some people in the Muslim world, but the chaps in Tehran are most likely to be on the target list and probably not so comfortable with the whole notion. Whether or not Israel has shown overt hostility to Iran is beside the point. The point is as outlined above. Let me ask you, why do you think that Iran is trying to develop this technology? Whilst saying that the Iranian nuclear project does not promote peace, would you say the same of Israel?

Jim Bowen

 

[a_unique_person]

Not a bad reply, Mycroft. However, let me reitterate; Iran has made hostile noises about Israel, Israel has a record of attacking countries it is not keen on ('justifiably' could be argued about all day and I doubt if both sides of the divide in the Mid East see it the same way) and Israel has nuclear weapons, despite being a regional superpower. No wonder the people in Tehran would like parity. MAD may not worry some people in the Muslim world, but the chaps in Tehran are most likely to be on the target list and probably not so comfortable with the whole notion. Whether or not Israel has shown overt hostility to Iran is beside the point. The point is as outlined above. Let me ask you, why do you think that Iran is trying to develop this technology? Whilst saying that the Iranian nuclear project does not promote peace, would you say the same of Israel?

Jim Bowen

The best way to head this off at the pass is for the moderates in Iran to get to power. They are the ones making all the noise about the weapons that may be in development. I don't know that the Iraq fiasco would have strengthened their hand.s

 

[Mycroft]

However, let me reitterate; Iran has made hostile noises about Israel, Israel has a record of attacking countries it is not keen on ('justifiably' could be argued about all day and I doubt if both sides of the divide in the Mid East see it the same way) and Israel has nuclear weapons, despite being a regional superpower. No wonder the people in Tehran would like parity.

Jim, if you insist that Iranian hostility towards Israel somehow justifies Iranian nuclear ambitions, then I'm afraid there is nothing more to say. I can't argue you out of your irrationality.

 

[a_unique_person]

Jim, if you insist that Iranian hostility towards Israel somehow justifies Iranian nuclear ambitions, then I'm afraid there is nothing more to say. I can't argue you out of your irrationality.

I think all he was trying to do was say that there is animosity between the countries, not trying to justify the escalation.

 

[Mycroft]

I think all he was trying to do was say that there is animosity between the countries, not trying to justify the escalation.

The animosity is pretty one sided.

TEHRAN (Reuters) - To shouts of "No compromise" tens of thousands of Iran's Basij militia staged a show of strength on Wednesday, a day before the U.N. nuclear watchdog meets to discuss Iran's disputed nuclear program.

The voluntary organization, which Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei recently dubbed as "Iran's atomic bomb," staged a military parade south of the capital and vowed to defend their country against any foreign threat.

…

Wearing military fatigues and some armed with Kalashnikov rifles, the basijis hailed their commander with the customary shouts of "Death to America, Death to Israel."

http://au.news.yahoo.com/041124/15/rvu5.html

It’s rather disingenuous to portray the animosity as being "between the two countries" when it’s clearly one country that has animosity for the other.

 

[Jim Bowen]

I think all he was trying to do was say that there is animosity between the countries, not trying to justify the escalation.

Cheers for that, A_U_P, it wasn't as clear as I had hoped it was; but you've hit the nail on the head. Animosity has a way of breeding animosity. It's hard to think favourably of people who don't think favourably of one's self.

Jim Bowen

 

[Ed]

Cheers for that, A_U_P, it wasn't as clear as I had hoped it was; but you've hit the nail on the head. Animosity has a way of breeding animosity. It's hard to think favourably of people who don't think favourably of one's self.

Jim Bowen

What a remarkable post. You take Iran spouting and create some equivilance with Isreal.

Tell me, yould you care to comment on this?

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran’s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".

"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.

Analysts said not only Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani’s speech was the strongest against Israel, but also this is the first time that a prominent leader of the Islamic Republic openly suggests the use of nuclear weapon against the Jewish State.

"It seems that Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani is forgetting that due to the present intertwinement of Israel and Palestine, the destruction of the Jewish State would also means the mass killing of Palestinian population as well", observed one Iranian commentator.

While Israel is believed to possess between 100 to 200 nuclear war heads, the Islamic Republic and Iraq are known to be working hard to produce their own atomic weapons with help from Russia and North Korea, Pakistan, also a Muslim state, has already a certain number of nuclear bomb.

In a lengthy speech to mark the so-called "International Qods (Jerusalem) Day" celebrated in Iran only, Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani, who, as the Chairman of the Assembly to Discern the Interests of the State, is the Islamic Republic’s number two man after Ayatollah Ali Khameneh’i, said since Israel was an emanation of Western colonialism therefore "in future it will be the interests of colonialism that will determine existence or non-existence of Israel".

Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani made the unprecedented threat as, following new suicide operations inside Israel and against Israeli settlements by Palestinian extremists in PA-controlled zones, responded by Israel’s heaviest bombarding of Palestinian cities, police, communication and radio-television installations, killing and wounding more than 200 people on both sides, resulted in the halting of all contacts between Israel and the PA of Mr. Yaser Arafat.

He said since Israel is the product of Western colonialism, "the continued existence of Israel depends on interests of arrogance and colonialism and as long as the base is helpful for colonialism, it is going to keep it.

Hashemi-Rafsanjani advised Western states not to pin their hopes on Israel's violence because it will be "very dangerous".

"We are not willing to see security in the world is harmed", he said, warning against the "eruption of the Third World War.

"War of the pious and martyrdom seeking forces against peaks of colonialism will be highly dangerous and might fan flames of the World War III", the former Iranian president said, backing firmly suicide operations against Israel.

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

 

[a_unique_person]

What a remarkable post. You take Iran spouting and create some equivilance with Isreal.

Tell me, yould you care to comment on this?



http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm

I wasn't trying to justify the animosity at all, or place blame, just trying to clarify mr bowens point.

If you want to move on to that topic, please do, but don't take, trying clarify where we are starting from as an attempt to justify anything.

This seems to be a common thing with you Ed, consusing analysis with justification.

 

[demon]

AUP:
"This seems to be a common thing with you Ed, consusing analysis with justification."

There`s a hell of a lot of that around this place!

 

[DaveMc]

It would be nice if I could just trust the Bush Administration, but the problem is, I know I can't. I don't know how much political capital Dubya thinks he has at home, but his last cheque bounced over here.

He's got a lot of political capital here in the U.S. I voted for him and I will crawl over broken glass to do it again. Liberal logic never ceases to amaze me. The liberals say that just because WMD's havn't been found yet, they must never have been there. Does that mean that just because we havn't found intelligent life in the universe, it doesn't exist?

We're still finding traces of WMD in Iraq. I guess I'm silly when I say that perhaps we just havn't found the motherlode yet, or that they might have been spirited out to Syria before the war.

Too bad you can't ask the late Mel Fisher if he thought the motherlode of the Atocha treasure off of Key West wasn't there, even though he was constantly finding traces of it before he hit pay dirt (sand)!

 

[demon]

"We're still finding traces of WMD in Iraq."

Please elaborate on this.

 

[a_unique_person]

He's got a lot of political capital here in the U.S. I voted for him and I will crawl over broken glass to do it again. Liberal logic never ceases to amaze me. The liberals say that just because WMD's havn't been found yet, they must never have been there. Does that mean that just because we havn't found intelligent life in the universe, it doesn't exist?

We're still finding traces of WMD in Iraq. I guess I'm silly when I say that perhaps we just havn't found the motherlode yet, or that they might have been spirited out to Syria before the war.

Too bad you can't ask the late Mel Fisher if he thought the motherlode of the Atocha treasure off of Key West wasn't there, even though he was constantly finding traces of it before he hit pay dirt (sand)!

The problem was, I was assured the intelligence they had was totally reliable and unabiguous. They knew just what was going on and where to find it. Turns out that just wasn't true. Even if they find the motherload now, they are still damned in my eyes, as the reason they went to war has been totally debased.