Boston Archdiocese closes 65 churches
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Which catechism is this? Was it officially linked to the conciliar documents? I was under the impression that the only universal Catholic catechism promulgated post-Vatican II was the current one (which, incidentally, is sometimes referred to informally as the "catechism of Vatican II").Bubbles said:
What does it say about homosexuality? I have to admit that it seems a little unlikely that Rome would have backed off from, much less "done a 180" with respect to, an official Vatican II position. Especially considering that the current pope was an active supporter of Vatican II who endorsed the conciliar documents, and that depending on the source you read, he was anywhere from a moderately to a highly influential participant in the discussions that took place and the positions that were adopted.
Considering the extraordinarily small percentage of priests who are sexual predators - and that there's some evidence that the incidence of predatory sexual behavior among Catholic priests is lower than among Protestant ministers or among other professionals such as teachers, whereas no evidence to the contrary exists - don't you think that this is an overblown statement? And if not, why not?Piscivore said:
That is a nice thought. But since the Archdiocese is getting rid of these assets - which it presumably would keep if it could afford to - why would the possibility of one of the former churches being used as a memorial depend on the Archdiocese? It could happen if the new owners of an ex-church wanted it to.
Ladewig
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Before I consider whether or not it is an overblown statement, I would want to see the statistics for the number of priest who committed sexual assault and then were transferred to another diocese where they assaulted other children.
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As for when I will feel sorry for the Catholic Church, it will be after:
- It sells its art collection and uses the money to feed and house the poor.
- It stops telling third-world congregants that any form of birth control that breaks the link between sex and procreation is a sin.
- It begins treating women as equal to men.
- It stops telling people that comdoms provide no defense against the transmission of AIDS. BBC
So, at the current rate those reforms will take place sometime around never.
Ladewig
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Wow. You read this chapter...
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
...and interpreted it as referring to the Reformation. Wow.
AtheistArchon
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Of course if there was any credence to be given to the Book of Revelation, we would also have to understand that the author himself was also a mystic. As for the notion of life on other planets, such a thing is possible, at least in the spiritual sense if, in fact a spiritual world does exist. And these are the inhabitants Swedenborg claimed to be discoursing with. So it doesn't mean the guy was necessarily "wacko" in that sense. We also need to take into account that the spirits dwell in the regions of the collective unconscious and, that the notion of inhabited life on other planets has been around for some time.Anders said:
It has more to do with being in the right place at the right time and lining up his observations with my own. Which, is what I've loosely based my book upon. Sorry, I don't feel at liberty to discuss it further right now (unprepared). All I can do is tell you the information is out there and available if you're interested. The book by Swedenborg is called the Apocalypse Revealed, and you may be able to purchase it through a sencond hand bookstore, either that or through the Swedenborg Foundation.Piscivore said:
While here's an excerpt from the Swedenborg site regarding the Book of Revelation having already been fulfilled ...
While he also refers to the end of the "old" Christian Church as the end of an era here. Thanks!
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
ceo_esq said:
It is possibly a hyperbolic statement if just applied to the pedophilia issue, but not in the larger historical sense.
This seems to imply that there should be no credence given to Revelations, yet earlier in the thread you blithely announced that Revelations labelled the Catholic Church as "the beast"- "By the way, does anyone know that the Book of Revelation (chapters 16-18) refers to the Roman Catholic Church as Babylon, the Great Harlot? ... I would also suggest that the Book of Revelation has already been fulfilled. Clarify this position, please.
And we also must understand that mystics and schizophrenics are hard to distinguish in the field.
Erm, yes, yes it does. Is there any evidence of this alleged "spiritual world" apart from the writings of this man? I can claim that there is an army of devil monkeys living in my butt that stand ready to cleanse the world of cheese when the stars are right, in a spiritual sense. Does not make it so. Sorry.
Erm, no, we do not need to take into account any such thing. The "collective unconscious" is the accumulation of cultural references that we humans share, not a realm apart from the objective world. And if there are no humans living on the Moon or Mars, how can "spirits" of the "collective unconscious" be living there?
edited to correct quoting error
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
Iacchus said:
Can I offer just one piece of advice, garnered from my own experience? I've been in the same position it seems to me that you are in now- really entranced by one person's philosophy. It happens to a lot of people who honestly seek out what it means to be human. My advice would be this: if one finds a person with a persuasive philosphy that seems to speak directly to your own thought processes, and those thoughts are radically different than those reported by the general population, it would pay to seriously investigate the opposite of that philosphy. Honestly give it equal time. You do not have to be "skeptical" (heh, although you should
), but do consider the implications of both positions. Well, take that for what it's worth. It is meant sincerely and with concern. You seem to be a pretty bright guy (girl? sorry don't know). Good luck with your book, although it seems I can guarantee I'd disagree with it!
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
Before we go looking for those statistics, do you have in mind a threshold number of priests (either in absolute numbers or in terms of a percentage of all priests) under those circumstances that would qualify characterizing the priesthood as constituting a misanthropic tyranny?Ladewig said:
Also, would that really change your assessment of the priests themselves, or would it be the bishops?
I assume, for the sake of relevance, you have in mind an art collection belonging to the Archdiocese of Boston with which I'm not familiar. If not, did you have something in particular in mind? Or some compelling reasons why the same principle should not objectively be applied to other art collections in the hands of other charitable, not-for-profit, or government institutions? Or some a precise basis for suggesting that the Church manages its fine arts patrimony in such a way that it the poor are harmed as a result? Or specific knowledge that the short-term gain such a divestment would yield would outweigh the long-term consequences, to the people in the Church's care and to the public generally, of the Church not having the assets in the future?Ladewig said:
Could you provide three or four examples?Ladewig said:
Unfortunately, I gave away my book called the New Catholic Catechism a few years ago and have yet to procure a replacement. It was publish in the mid-60's, I believe. Since I don't have the book, I can't quote it.
I assume that none of us buys the stuff about the beast in the Apocalypse being the Church of Rome, so I won't talk about it. The Apovolypse claims to be by 'John'. He has been called John the Divine. Historically, John the Divine, John the Evangelist (the author of the 4th gospel), and John the Apostle have been identified as the same person. In truth they are almost certainly 2 or 3 different people (to the degree that any of the gospels can be identified as being by a particular person as opposed to a tradition).
I don't wish to defend Rome on its handling of the abuse issue, but I will point out that, from what I have heard, the school system has the same issues, especially among coaches. There are accusations, but not enough proof to act on, so the guy is pawned off on some other district / diocese (not that anywhere near all of Rome's cases are that innocent).
I assume that none of us buys the stuff about the beast in the Apocalypse being the Church of Rome, so I won't talk about it. The Apovolypse claims to be by 'John'. He has been called John the Divine. Historically, John the Divine, John the Evangelist (the author of the 4th gospel), and John the Apostle have been identified as the same person. In truth they are almost certainly 2 or 3 different people (to the degree that any of the gospels can be identified as being by a particular person as opposed to a tradition).
I don't wish to defend Rome on its handling of the abuse issue, but I will point out that, from what I have heard, the school system has the same issues, especially among coaches. There are accusations, but not enough proof to act on, so the guy is pawned off on some other district / diocese (not that anywhere near all of Rome's cases are that innocent).
headscratcher4
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I note that the Pope today named Cardinal Law -- ExBishop of Boston -- ArchPriest for the Church of Mary Magiori in Rome. Hopefully he will be a better manager of his new church than of his old ...
LostAngeles
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headscratcher4 said:
...No. He didn't. He...
*gets back to worshipping the Great Spider*
Ladewig
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I was referring to middle management - the bishops - as being part the problem. Now that I have gone back and reread the orginal statement, I think neither "misanthropic" nor "tyranny" is the right word. I withdraw my objection to your assertion concerning the original quote.
No, I was referring to the Vatican's art collection. As for the compelling reason the idea should not be applied to other charitable, non-profit institution, those other institutions do not claim to be founded on the words of Christ - which include: "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Matt, Mark, Luke) Given that this institution has said, women can't be priests because Jesus selected only men to be disciples; then shouldn't it also follow Jesus's example of not collecting worldly riches?
Even leaving that aside, if Doctors without Borders or Oxfam had an art collection measuring in the hundreds of millions of dollars, then, yes, I would suggest they sell it.
The church's mission is to save souls, but one cannot save the souls of those who die before they hear the Word.
Ladewig
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Give me some more time to document some things. I poked around the Catholic Network for Women's Equality, but aside from women not being deacons or priests, nothing on that site really stood out.
Kopji
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Many closed churches around here become available for use by public school and community neighborhood groups.
The closures are sad in the sense that they likely represent betrayed trust and simple faith that has been confronted by the complex reality of the world.
The local newspaper today has an article on the political maneuvering of the religious Right leaders in the Arizona senate. Forcing a toothless vote on gay marriage, but designed to provide a harmful 'litmus' statistic that will harm moderate republicans chances for re-election when presented to their conservative church-goers.
These groups DO exert political influence and I cannot say I'm overly sorry when their support diminishes. Perhaps the next big battle will be over their continued status as non profit, non political, tax exempt organizations.
And some boring statistics...
The closures are sad in the sense that they likely represent betrayed trust and simple faith that has been confronted by the complex reality of the world.
The local newspaper today has an article on the political maneuvering of the religious Right leaders in the Arizona senate. Forcing a toothless vote on gay marriage, but designed to provide a harmful 'litmus' statistic that will harm moderate republicans chances for re-election when presented to their conservative church-goers.
These groups DO exert political influence and I cannot say I'm overly sorry when their support diminishes. Perhaps the next big battle will be over their continued status as non profit, non political, tax exempt organizations.
And some boring statistics...
And still more boring statistics:
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm
(Partisan, but with a good bibliography.)
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm
(Partisan, but with a good bibliography.)
I’ve always suspected the number was closer to 10% when considering the “hush-hush” nature of such a scandal. The church has the power to cover it up, the faithful don’t want to admit it, and the victims don’t want to be victimized by publicity. They only have reports to go by and the rest is guess work. If you see the reports as the tip of the ice berg, then the rate is much higher.
As for the closings, it’s all about the dead presidents: about $400 million of them.
Again, from a historical perspective, and in the interest of annoying the Archdiocese, I hope interested parties begin the process to place some of these churches in the historic register. St. Augustine in South Boston has my interest.
Built in 1868 -- with a nearby cemetery and chapel that were created in the early 1800s, before the Boston Archdiocese was established -- St. Augustine's is thought of as a historic institution with deep roots in the community. Most of its parishioners hail from poorer families, said the Rev. Donald S. Abbott, its pastoral vicar, and the parish has long provided meals for the hungry and the aged. St. Augustine's has the highest sacramental index among South Boston's seven churches, measured by the number of baptisms, funerals, plus twice the number of marriages it performs
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The oldest Catholic building still standing in Boston, this Gothic Revival chapel was built in 1819 as a mortuary chapel for the remains of Father Francis Matignon, one of the founders of the Church in Boston and for many years the only Catholic priest in the city. It was enlarged in 1831 to accommodate the increasing Catholic population in South Boston. Services were held here until 1844, when Sts. Peter and Paul was completed. The adjoining cemetery has been used since 1818 and was the first Catholic burying ground in New England.
As for the closings, it’s all about the dead presidents: about $400 million of them.
Again, from a historical perspective, and in the interest of annoying the Archdiocese, I hope interested parties begin the process to place some of these churches in the historic register. St. Augustine in South Boston has my interest.
Built in 1868 -- with a nearby cemetery and chapel that were created in the early 1800s, before the Boston Archdiocese was established -- St. Augustine's is thought of as a historic institution with deep roots in the community. Most of its parishioners hail from poorer families, said the Rev. Donald S. Abbott, its pastoral vicar, and the parish has long provided meals for the hungry and the aged. St. Augustine's has the highest sacramental index among South Boston's seven churches, measured by the number of baptisms, funerals, plus twice the number of marriages it performs
***
The oldest Catholic building still standing in Boston, this Gothic Revival chapel was built in 1819 as a mortuary chapel for the remains of Father Francis Matignon, one of the founders of the Church in Boston and for many years the only Catholic priest in the city. It was enlarged in 1831 to accommodate the increasing Catholic population in South Boston. Services were held here until 1844, when Sts. Peter and Paul was completed. The adjoining cemetery has been used since 1818 and was the first Catholic burying ground in New England.