Border Security and Illegal Immigration

Disbelief... sorry I forgot to answer that.

WELL, one simple factor is: if you consider that most illegals take lower-tier jobs, like agriculture, construction, etc.; and the companies which hire them pay way less than the minimum wage regulates. The low to middle class civilians that would be working on these jobs instead, either get fired, because the company is not willing to pay them a proper wage, or their income gets leveled down to a third world level. The second is more common, as they try looking from other jobs instead. That raises unemployment rates and directly affect the economy.

Now, that mostly happens on the bordeline states where there's more illegal immigrants coming and going through. If you want to know another factor, is that illegal immigrants often send money back to their home country, for their families, or they go back through the border again and spend their money themselves. I don't know bullocks about economy really, but depending on the ratio of productivity input, and money output, it may very well affect the economy nationwide. I reckon that even a low percentage of 10%, and that's being conservative, out of 20 million illegals, can hurt the economy..thingy. Yeah well, you probably know that better than I do.
 
Yurebiz said:
Disbelief... sorry I forgot to answer that.

WELL, one simple factor is: if you consider that most illegals take lower-tier jobs, like agriculture, construction, etc.; and the companies which hire them pay way less than the minimum wage regulates. The low to middle class civilians that would be working on these jobs instead, either get fired, because the company is not willing to pay them a proper wage, or their income gets leveled down to a third world level. The second is more common, as they try looking from other jobs instead. That raises unemployment rates and directly affect the economy.

Now, that mostly happens on the bordeline states where there's more illegal immigrants coming and going through. If you want to know another factor, is that illegal immigrants often send money back to their home country, for their families, or they go back through the border again and spend their money themselves. I don't know bullocks about economy really, but depending on the ratio of productivity input, and money output, it may very well affect the economy nationwide. I reckon that even a low percentage of 10%, and that's being conservative, out of 20 million illegals, can hurt the economy..thingy. Yeah well, you probably know that better than I do.
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I am an engineer, not an economist.

Now, if these illegals are taking all these jos from Americans, why is unemployment so low nationwide? Agricultural wages are pretty low, but do you kow why they try and get construction jobs? Because they pay well, and not just from an illegal's perspective. You do realize that many are employed simply because Americans won't take the jobs. Also, remember the next time you go to the store to buy produce that the price is low because of the illegals who are doing work that Americans won't. Americans have this silly idea that every job should pay $20-$30 per hour, be done in the US, yet they should be able to buy all their goods cheaply.

You also talk about them sending the money back, which I also pointed out. But, you fail to see that they have to spend money in the US to live -food, clothes (mainly cheaper in the US), toiletries, etc. They are spending money in the US, and I put that at about $3,000 per year per immigrant. Does that sound reasonable?
 
Yes, $3,000 is even conservative I think.
But they earn $9k to $12k a year and send back like, $1k or 2.

About the "americans don't work at farms", you may be right. But even so, it's less jobs for americans. If you could choose between having cheap food prices by overworking third world populations (plus having a few unemployments to your own people), or keep the wages at a sustainable level for everyone, what would you choose? It might be better for us that, sort of take "advantage" of them, but that money is inevitably going outside the country. I think it's the same deal with China too. It's ultimately bad for our economy.
I say keep the wages up and keep illegals out. If they want to come in they have plenty of ways to do it legally. Especially with the guest-worker programs that might come in a couple years. (Except if companies that don't wish to pay legal wages for the immigrants lobby against such reforms...)

I'm hardly an economist at all, I just listened to these arguments and haven't heard of any other plausible interpretation other than that. If you think there's a way that having a third world population coming in by the masses can help the economy then please do tell...
 
Yurebiz said:
Yes, $3,000 is even conservative I think.
But they earn $9k to $12k a year and send back like, $1k or 2.

About the "americans don't work at farms", you may be right. But even so, it's less jobs for americans. If you could choose between having cheap food prices by overworking third world populations (plus having a few unemployments to your own people), or keep the wages at a sustainable level for everyone, what would you choose? It might be better for us that, sort of take "advantage" of them, but that money is inevitably going outside the country. I think it's the same deal with China too. It's ultimately bad for our economy.
I say keep the wages up and keep illegals out. If they want to come in they have plenty of ways to do it legally. Especially with the guest-worker programs that might come in a couple years. (Except if companies that don't wish to pay legal wages for the immigrants lobby against such reforms...)

I'm hardly an economist at all, I just listened to these arguments and haven't heard of any other plausible interpretation other than that. If you think there's a way that having a third world population coming in by the masses can help the economy then please do tell...
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I never said that taking advantage of the illegals was right, but it is reality for right now. I would much prefer to see a guest worker program and for the US government to work with the MX government to improve the economy in MX. That is because the real problem is the MX economy can't afford to pay decent wages for most people here. I also think we need a guest worker program and a move to help legalize immigrants easier.

You do realize that since the outsourcing of jobs and the move to manufacturing that unemployment in the US is at or near record lows? Ot has been going on for 20+ years yet the US economy has done pretty well during that time frame. The doom and gloom scenario painted by alarmists has not only failed to pass, but the opposite has occurred.

You have failed to show how the illegals have hurt the economy, yet I have thrown out conservative numbers (which you agree are conservative)that show that it helps. I have the recent past that disproves your theories, yet you still cling to them. You should stop debating from incredulity and looking at the facts. Visiting doom and gloom sites does not help, so you should just look for sites that present facts.
 
So unemployment doesn't hurt the economy nowadays, does it?
IMO having people going unemployed and instead becoming investors at wall street is not good for the stability of the country. We become more dependent of international share stocks and less on our own ability to.. you know, work. And guess what those companies end up doing, more outsourcing and hiring whoever they can pay less. I really don't know how the heck hasn't the Dollar collapsed already. But for a country that has become so subject to the big business's profit money, I can hardly agree that we're not in a blinking red state today. You know, dollar devaluing and so.

Seeing us debating about it is rather silly though since none of us are familiar with it and can only handwave each other's opinion with no concrete reasoning :( I thank you though for putting your opinion up.
 
Yurebiz said:
So unemployment doesn't hurt the economy nowadays, does it?
IMO having people going unemployed and instead becoming investors at wall street is not good for the stability of the country. We become more dependent of international share stocks and less on our own ability to.. you know, work. And guess what those companies end up doing, more outsourcing and hiring whoever they can pay less. I really don't know how the heck hasn't the Dollar collapsed already. But for a country that has become so subject to the big business's profit money, I can hardly agree that we're not in a blinking red state today. You know, dollar devaluing and so.

Seeing us debating about it is rather silly though since none of us are familiar with it and can only handwave each other's opinion with no concrete reasoning :( I thank you though for putting your opinion up.
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Once again, your lack of reading comprehension astounds me. Show me where unemployment is high overall, not just in select areas. Did you miss the part where unemployment is at or near record LOW levels since the advent of outsourcing?
 
I know they're on record low. Let me make clear what I said: I know unemployment doesn't mean much nowadays, but I find it unhealthy for a stable economy nonetheless. Strong countries have people working and producing wealth. Being unemployed because someone got your spot for a lower payoff ain't good no matter what. It only benefits the eevul international corporations.
 
Disbelief said:
You do realize that since the outsourcing of jobs and the move to manufacturing that unemployment in the US is at or near record lows? Ot has been going on for 20+ years yet the US economy has done pretty well during that time frame. The doom and gloom scenario painted by alarmists has not only failed to pass, but the opposite has occurred.
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But in fairness the economic picture is not all rosy. Average wages, corrected for inflation, have barely grown for most workers over the last two decades or so. Companies are beginning to dump their pension obligations and are moving away from many of the benefits they used to offer, in spite of increased corporate profitability.

That said, it's all a rather complicated situation with a lot of interrelated and interconnected factors.
 
Bump with the amnesty coming and all.
In regards to that, what can I say, if they wanted to get rid of all illegals they wouldn't do that. It's now clear that congress wants people coming in.
 
I know there are some estimates about how many immigrants enter the US illegally. Are there any estimates of how many illegal immigrants leave the US once they discover that it isn't the utopia that they had believed it was?

I feel that the 20 million number that's thrown around so often is rhetoric.

I am not in denial, as I do feel there are many immigrants that have entered the US illegally and stayed. I just think many have returned due to the obvious hardships endured by a person removed from their culture, and the limitations of their opportunity.

My wife is a legal immigrant from Mexico. She was a hospital administrator for 13 years and worked for the UCSS (a Federal Mexican Job- Similar to the Social Security Office) for roughly $1500 a month or 15000 pesos. Since comming to America she has applied for many jobs (she is very skilled in many different areas, and her work ethic is amazing); However, her ability to speak english clearly is a huge hurdle. She is working hard everyday to become fluent in English, but without the language skills she has not received the job offers from the types of business she is suited. Instead she works nights as a common laborer at a retail chain we all know and love (or not) for about $1400 a month. Yeah..the American dream.. from a supervising desk job to the graveyard shift unloading pallets of luncheon meats and frozen pizzas...all for less money to boot. I know she wonders if comming to America was such a good decision after all. I know it is a harder life for her as far as work, and her contribution to society goes.

We are both hopefull that once she becomes fluent in English, she will have those opportunities. I suppose that is motivating, and we have many resouces to accomplish her goals.

What of people without a support system, without resources, without the ability to master the english language, or find a place in American culture?

I suspect they would return to Mexico, because if you are going to be poor, one might as well be poor in one's own element. It is my observation the chances of being poor but happy are much greater in ones own culture.

Sorry if this is a derail-- I just have a different take on the delicious American pie in the sky for immigrants, especially immigrants dealing with the prejudicial stigma of a colonized minority group.
 
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