Book Test: Max & Any Others Interested

voidx

Just to be clear,
Personally, I think it sounds like fun to have various people presented with a list of 10 books, one of which has been selected to be on the shelf, locker, whatever. I think doing this repeatedly and then seeing if any patterns emerge would be fun, too. Getting results and looking for patterns in them can always be ineteresting, but we all know that, whatever the results are, it won't prove anything or convince anyone of anything one way or the other. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to do...or even worthwhile to try.
 
Wow. Great stuff. Some rambling thoughts:

1. I have not pm'd Luke T. the book information due to the comments in this thread, though I have placed the book on top of my locker.

2. Cleopatra said this:

Unless you want me to do Garette a tarot reading and then make a guess

For some reason, though, I can only read it this far:

Unless you want me to do Garette

Will there be a vote?

[/offensive digression of man far too long in Iraq]

3. [Apologies to Cleopatra] Sorry, Cleopatra. No offense meant. [/Apologies to Cleopatra]

4. I agree almost absolutely with Ed and Voidx about the 10 book list being better. If I can be post-pre-proactive, I did actually think of this yesterday, but we were already into this set up so I didn't pursue it. I may yet change it to that. I do not think Clancie's objections to this process have merit. Edited to add: Clancie appears not to object now; sorry if I mischaracterized your position

5. Nor do I think that restricting it to fiction titles is better. If anything, it expands the subject's chances for a hit.

6. I am woefully unsuited for the task of determining the proper technical security procedures for this. I think, perhaps, that regardless of encryption/non-encryption or PGP/private method/random text that there will always remain the human element and trust will be required. Even if the encryption thing were worked out, who is to say that I'm not lying about which book is on my locker? I might have put The Book of Kells up there but told Luke T. that it's actually The Happy Hooker. If I were truly part of an ECA and truly feared the discovery that psi is real, this is, in fact, the route I would take; much simpler and more effective than worrying about encryptions. The more I think about it, the less I see the need for the security in this particular non-scientific experiment-like but fallible test. Trust me or don't. Participate or don't. I admit up front that I would/will object strenuously to such protocols in any test purporting to be scientific.

7. Somewhere in all these comments, I got the impression that actually having the book on the locker is not considered by some to be necessary, and that simply printing an Amazon page would be sufficient. While I admit this is not a scientific test, that particular "looseness" is wholly unacceptable to me as it would leave far too large a hole about which the subjects could complain. For any test I run, an actual book (or other object, if we change the test) will be in the designated spot; I will know its title and its nature and what it looks like; I will personally have handled it (I will, in fact, be the last person to handle it before it is put in the designated spot); and I will think about it. Right now, I just bring it to mind occasionally throughout the day. If we want to get more rigorous, I could set my watch to beep on the hour to remind me to think about it for a minute.

8. While the thoughts were not crystallized to the extent I am about to express them, I had four particular goals in mind when I began this. I think they are being demonstrated fairly well, though the first not so much because there's only been one trial.

a. Demonstrate that the success rate, even in a loosely controlled and favorable-to-the-subject test, is much lower than the subjects expect it would be. Yes. I entered this with bias. I expect it to fail to demonstrate anomalous cognition. That being said, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong.

b. Demonstrate that the subjects and those who believe in AC will not quantify what can be done. For the record, I don't really include Max in this. He has been, at least in all discussions with me, up front in admitting that if he possesses any ability at all it is unpredictable, small, and vague.

c. Demonstrate that the "judging" (and once we got past titles, judging became a necessity) is inconsistent when applied by those who believe. Clancie, don't take this personally, but this is directed at you. When I gave my sample list of titles that could be counted as hits against Max's "boy, adventure, horse, racing" you discounted them all. I believe you did so, even if it was subconsciously, because to do otherwise would have demonstrated that your standards for success were too loose. However, your response to the "Godfather" "American Gods" test is inconsistent with that and shows that in actual application, you are far broader than you claim to be. The same is evidenced in your comments that if Max had added "Africa" to his list, it would have counted as a hit for The Tangier Diaries.

d. Prompt others to do better tests. It has apparently prompted Ian to do another one. Whether it's better or not remains to be seen. I hope it is. For some reason, he chose me to pm the secret information to, so I have that now. I'm honored he chose me.

9. Here's what I'm proposing: as I have one book up now, and it has been up for about 14 hours, I will continue with this trial with the same protocols. After that, I will adjust, probably to the 10-title-version. For those scientists out there, please continue with suggestions on how best to do that. My stipulation is that the titles actually be in my possession, but I am confident that I have access to enough of them which are varied enough to conduct a good test.

How's that?
 
So this is basically "let's guess what book Garrette has on top of his locker", right?

Ok, I guess "Summa Theologica" by Thomas Aquinas.



Did I win?
 
Ok I cannot stay long today but since I am a maniac with semantics I couldn't help noticing Clancie that you keep refering to the whole experiment as fun...

* Shuffles the deck and when she asks about Garette the Hanged Man appears...:crc:
 
Cleopatra said:
Ok I cannot stay long today but since I am a maniac with semantics I couldn't help noticing Clancie that you keep refering to the whole experiment as fun...

* Shuffles the deck and when she asks about Garette the Hanged Man appears...:crc:
Yes, it's fun for Clancie until her pet beliefs are threatened. Then seriousness abounds. Calls for evidence are heard throughout the forums.

Hush, you can hear them now...

you have no proof...show me where I said that...I have you on ignooooooorrre...
 
Originally posted by Buki:

So this is basically "let's guess what book Garrette has on top of his locker", right?

Not really. It's a test (albeit loose and unscientific) to demonstrate validity or lack of validity to the claim of anomalous cognition.

For believers, that means use whatever method of AC you believe works.

For those who don't believe but who think they can reasonably emulate some process espoused by believers, that means try emulating it.

For those who don't believe but want to act as a control or participate for some other reason, it means try to figure out the book by whatever means you can so that any hits by the believers have less significance.


0riginally posted by Buki:

Ok, I guess "Summa Theologica" by Thomas Aquinas.

Did I win?

I will post the answer simultaneously for all, when everyone who is participating has revealed their answer.

For future reference, please pm answers.


For the record, buki, I do have a sense of humor, and I think you're just trying to be silly in your last post. But I have my official Cracker Jack Scientist hat on at the moment and so must treat all responses with equal objectivity.
 
Cleopatra said:
Come on Buki there is no reason to be hostile right now. :)
Was I being hostile? I'm sorry if that's how it appeared.

It's just that I"ve been reading Clancie's posts for quite a while now and I've noticed how she goes from one aspect to another. I believe someone else pointed this out earlier.

In any case, those are my observations, and I stand by them.
 
Originally posted by Cleopatra:

* Shuffles the deck and when she asks about Garette the Hanged Man appears...

Ummm........ [meek and mild voice] Help? [/meek and mild voice]
 
Garrette said:


Not really. It's a test (albeit loose and unscientific) to demonstrate validity or lack of validity to the claim of anomalous cognition.

Then how can it be a test of anything?

I don't quite get what you are trying to resolve here, sorry.

For the record, buki, I do have a sense of humor, and I think you're just trying to be silly in your last post. But I have my official Cracker Jack Scientist hat on at the moment and so must treat all responses with equal objectivity. [/B]
Of course I was being silly. This whole experiment is silly.

I'm probably just tired and don't get the whole reasoning behind this. What the hell, have fun.
 
buki, this is from me a few posts up:

8. While the thoughts were not crystallized to the extent I am about to express them, I had four particular goals in mind when I began this. I think they are being demonstrated fairly well, though the first not so much because there's only been one trial.

a. Demonstrate that the success rate, even in a loosely controlled and favorable-to-the-subject test, is much lower than the subjects expect it would be. Yes. I entered this with bias. I expect it to fail to demonstrate anomalous cognition. That being said, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong.

b. Demonstrate that the subjects and those who believe in AC will not quantify what can be done. For the record, I don't really include Max in this. He has been, at least in all discussions with me, up front in admitting that if he possesses any ability at all it is unpredictable, small, and vague.

c. Demonstrate that the "judging" (and once we got past titles, judging became a necessity) is inconsistent when applied by those who believe. Clancie, don't take this personally, but this is directed at you. When I gave my sample list of titles that could be counted as hits against Max's "boy, adventure, horse, racing" you discounted them all. I believe you did so, even if it was subconsciously, because to do otherwise would have demonstrated that your standards for success were too loose. However, your response to the "Godfather" "American Gods" test is inconsistent with that and shows that in actual application, you are far broader than you claim to be. The same is evidenced in your comments that if Max had added "Africa" to his list, it would have counted as a hit for The Tangier Diaries.

d. Prompt others to do better tests. It has apparently prompted Ian to do another one. Whether it's better or not remains to be seen. I hope it is. For some reason, he chose me to pm the secret information to, so I have that now. I'm honored he chose me.
 
There seems to be a hinted-at but specifically unstated idea, particularly among the non-believers here, that if a test isn't completely scientific and doesn't have as its aim the falsification of some null hypothesis then it's just a waste of time.

I disagree.

Tests such as mine in this thread will never have any validity in regard to determining if psi is real or not. I acknowledge that.

But it can point out flaws in thinking and in analysis. On both sides of the fence.

I refuse to say that this test is worthless; I do not believe it is.
 
Ah, I see now. Sorry Garrette, please carry on.


I will still analyze and be cynical, dammit! I will! And your little dog too!
 
Garrette said:


Ummm........ [meek and mild voice] Help? [/meek and mild voice]

[off topic]

If anything it may have piqued her interest... getting a card that indicates Garrette is hung… ;)

[/off topic]

I downloaded the PGP program from Roger's link and it seems simple enough for anyone reasonably familiar with Windows to use, especially if they just have to decrypt a message. (And only a luciatic would question the security of PGP.)
 
Originally posted by Clancie
Well, voidx, you won't like this answer--and I'm not a psychic, so it's just my personal impression of "the process", but here it is:

They get what they get and pass it along.

Its up to others--sitters, clients, testers, scientists...whoever....to then take what has been given to them and see if it has significance or meaning and is of value.
I'm not voidx, but I don't like this answer either. :D

If what they get has something to do with Garrette's book, it should help them to pick his book out of a group of books. If what they get has nothing to do with Garrette's book, why are we running a test where they try to guess his book?

We should distinguish the psychic process (if any) from the process of testing for its existence. Other people "tak[ing] what has been given to them and see[ing] if it has significance or meaning and is of value" is not the psychic process---these other people are not psychic, after all---rather, it is the process by which they try to decide whether the person claiming to be psychic is in fact psychic. And it is not a terribly good way of deciding that, because it is very hard to determine how much significance or meaning or value we would expect them to find in the information given by a non-psychic.

A good test for psi is one where we know what result to expect if psi exists and we know what result to expect if psi doesn't exist, and where those two results are different enough that, after the test is done, we can easily decide which one actually happened.

I am very much in favor of having the testee pick the book out of a group. A group of eight is nice; then Garrette can flip a coin three times to decide which will be the target. (I mean that literally: take an actual coin and flip it.) It doesn't matter how the eight are chosen; the testee can choose them if he wants to.
 
Mercutio said:
I didn't really think you meant disrespect. My problem is that the "subconscious expectations" cannot, even in principle, be determined before the results; they may only be discerned after the fact. I can completely believe that I am trying my best, but if my results are bad you may then say it was subconscious expectations of failure leading to negative psi. Could it be true? I suppose so, but I hope you can see the circularity of the definition of "subconscious expectations".
Actually, different laboratories have gotten different results on this. My notes are at the office now (so, sorry, no citations) but there have been positive effects for trying, for not trying, for motivating with money, for not doing that...I think that it is premature for anyone to say that "ESP doesn't work by" any particular method.

Perhaps you can ask the people who get your title right (if there are any) what method they used... [/B]

I was thinking more of anecdotes and my personal experiences. They vastly swamp the research. Even with research I believe that it strongly suggests that psi is facilitated along the lines I have delineated. It seems to me a tad strange you arguing with me what the most effective way is when you don't even believe in it! :eek:

With the subconscious expectatations of failing I was simply attempting a very plausible hypothesis to account for the propensity for skeptics to sometimes psi miss.
 
voidx said:

Read my comments on the 1 in 10 book scenario. We don't care WHAT form the anomalous cognition takes, so long as the medium receiving it can do something useful with it, like guessing which of 10 books their receiving information about. I'm rather amazed that there was less contention over letting Max have to pull the book title out of thin air, rather than choosing 1 out of 10. As I mention, if anything it improves his chances.

No, limiting the targets is a bad idea in my opinion.
 
Interesting Ian said:


No, limiting the targets is a bad idea in my opinion.

Why?

Consider how ESP etc. is often described e.g. as a fleeting, almost intuitive process, that it is not like "seeing" with your eyes and so on. There are millions of possible books so having some of these flashes may not help you pin it down. (And couldn’t your 'subconscious' (not that I think we have one ;) ) almost filter out some legitimate titles because they "sounded strange"?

But give people a choice out of say ten books and that lets them use their feelings to work out which was the book they thought they had received information about.

"Yes - that's the one, that's why I said there was a priest and Lord Dunsey, my ESP was trying to tell me that it was book about infertile aristocrats!"
 
Garrette said:
8. While the thoughts were not crystallized to the extent I am about to express them, I had four particular goals in mind when I began this. I think they are being demonstrated fairly well, though the first not so much because there's only been one trial.

a. Demonstrate that the success rate, even in a loosely controlled and favorable-to-the-subject test, is much lower than the subjects expect it would be.

Who are these subjects please. I don't expect anyone to be successful.

Yes. I entered this with bias. I expect it to fail to demonstrate anomalous cognition. That being said, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong.

I too expect it to fail to demonstrate AC. This does not however provide any evidence whatsoever against AC.

b. Demonstrate that the subjects and those who believe in AC will not quantify what can be done.

Why do you need to demonstrate it since no one is denying it so far as I'm aware??
 

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