Bobby Fisher exhumed in paternity question

[quarky]

Chess makes people crazy.

I'm a victim of chess.

 

[Checkmite]

I never said we owed him anything only that we shouldn't forget that an American winning the chess championship was exponentially less likely than an American team winning the World Cup eight years ago (we have a real chance this year)

If Fischer were alive today, he would be foaming with rage at you for referring to him as an American. He really, really, really hated America.

No representative of my country.

You can't say that Spassky or any other Russian "defecting" or "hating Russia" makes their achievements "not Russian", and then turn around and put Fischer on a pedestal as some kind of American Hero.

 

[Senex]

Chess makes people crazy.

I'm a victim of chess.

Not as much as that Checkmite character.

If Fischer were alive today, he would be foaming with rage at you for referring to him as an American. He really, really, really hated America.

No representative of my country.

You can't say that Spassky or any other Russian "defecting" or "hating Russia" makes their achievements "not Russian", and then turn around and put Fischer on a pedestal as some kind of American Hero.

Fischer was an American hero at the time and still is to me. The guy suffered from mental illness. He was half Jewish himself (he really is dead and won't hunt me down will he?

Spassky was of sound mind when he defected and Kasporov was born in Azerbaijan and has dodged several assassinations attempts since he quit chess to become an anti-commie politician. Don't even get me started on Korchnoi.

You must have a poster of that commie suck up Karpov hanging over your bed. Treasure it because despite the multiple people who can now claim to be champion, few in the future will be Russian.

 

[Cleon]

You must have a poster of that commie suck up Karpov hanging over your bed.

And I bet he salutes it before bed every night, too!

 

[Senex]

And I bet he salutes it before bed every night, too!

I didn't want to say it -- but yeah, I agree, I bet that anti-American anti-Fischer scoundrel does give homage to the Karpov's of the world before he hits the sack. He longs for the good old days of commie chess rule.

Those days are long gone.

 

[Cleon]

I didn't want to say it -- but yeah, I agree, I bet that anti-American anti-Fischer scoundrel does give homage to the Karpov's of the world before he hits the sack. He longs for the good old days of commie chess rule.

Those days are long gone.

Sadly, at this point I honestly don't know if you are being serious or not.

 

[Senex]

Sadly, at this point I honestly don't know if you are being serious or not.

Sadly, you see the world in black and white.

 

[Cleon]

Sadly, you see the world in black and white.

...says the guy accusing Checkmite of "longing for the good old days of commie chess rule."

 

[Senex]

...says the guy accusing Checkmite of "longing for the good old days of commie chess rule."

He did write this...

Yes, and obviously Russia is reeling so much from that "embarrassing blow" that they still dominate the game to this day...

If Fischer were alive today, he would be foaming with rage at you for referring to him as an American. He really, really, really hated America.

No representative of my country.

I represented Fischer as a hero of mine and he started the argument. I'm only finishing it.

 

[Checkmite]

Fischer was an American hero at the time and still is to me. The guy suffered from mental illness.

No he wasn't "mentally ill", he was just a jackass. I'm unaware of any doctor actually diagnosing Fischer with a mental disease. If you are, please post a source.

 

[ddt]

I represented Fischer as a hero of mine and he started the argument. I'm only finishing it.

You were also dissing the SU chess accomplishments, essentially accusing them of continuously cheating.

If you were living and aware in the early 70's you knew the Soviet Union was many things: Oppressive on political rights, oppressive to the point of starving millions of Ukranians, crazy ass oppressive for many reasons -- but what they were to me were evil chess cheats. Bobby showed them. He forfeited games and still kicked their cheating asses.

The starving of the Ukrainians was in the 1930s, not the 1960s or 1970s. And what has that to do with their chess accomplishments? The SU poured a lot of money and effort in training chess players. The US public education system devotes a lot of time and effort to sports like baseball and American football. I don't see the difference.

Where did they cheat? Were Smyslov, Tal, Petrosian, Spassky, Karpov and Kasparov undeserving champions? Didn't they get their titles according to the book?

I find it mildly amusing that you accuse the SU of cheating, what with all the shenanigans that Fischer pulled. Hell, he didn't even have a spot in the interzonal because he skipped the US championship. And then the discussions about the place of the game, the prize money, and during the game the cameras. And then, of course, the shenanigans about the next match, which he eventually forfeited because the FIDE would not give in to all his demands.

You're out of touch because they no longer dominate chess. Spassky had to defect

At the time of his defection, he was well past his prime and had lost interest in really playing for the top. It had no influence on the SU chess accomplishments.

and four of his advisors went to the gulags.

Link for that claim?

Fischer single handedly without a single chess advisor with him crushed a well oiled chess machine. That kind of event happens less than once in a lifetime. I came home from grade school and watched the PBS coverage and was one of the first to celebrate.

If he had no seconds, it was his own choice. They were well part of the game, and any GM at the time would have considered it an honor to even be asked for the position.

You don't think Gary Kasporov who dominated shortly later was a commie Russian do you. He was/is a non-Russian commie hater.

Nevertheless, he was raised in that system and owed the development of his talent to it, there's no point in denying that.

 

[Suddenly]

No he wasn't "mentally ill", he was just a jackass. I'm unaware of any doctor actually diagnosing Fischer with a mental disease. If you are, please post a source.

Was he ever evaluated at all? If he wasn't, this isn't a fair question. I'm on the fence on this one, but I lean towards some kind of mental illness, but that in and of itself does not somehow make him not culpable for the hate he spewed.

 

[Checkmite]

Was he ever evaluated at all? If he wasn't, this isn't a fair question.

If he wasn't, "he had a mental illness" isn't a fair claim.

 

[quarky]

It is very troubling when a superior brain is also a dick. Bobby could have been a masterful serial killer, or car thief, or prison escapee. Too bad he took up chess.

 

[Senex]

No he wasn't "mentally ill", he was just a jackass. I'm unaware of any doctor actually diagnosing Fischer with a mental disease. If you are, please post a source.

MY bad, Fischer was a model of mental health.

You were also dissing the SU chess accomplishments, essentially accusing them of continuously cheating.

I accuse them of cheating in the interzonals.

The starving of the Ukrainians was in the 1930s, not the 1960s or 1970s. And what has that to do with their chess accomplishments? The SU poured a lot of money and effort in training chess players. The US public education system devotes a lot of time and effort to sports like baseball and American football. I don't see the difference.

I see how you can equate the two

Where did they cheat? Were Smyslov, Tal, Petrosian, Spassky, Karpov and Kasparov undeserving champions? Didn't they get their titles according to the book?

Tiamanov lost 6-0 why didn't you mention him in your commie sympathizing.

I find it mildly amusing that you accuse the SU of cheating, what with all the shenanigans that Fischer pulled. Hell, he didn't even have a spot in the interzonal because he skipped the US championship. And then the discussions about the place of the game, the prize money, and during the game the cameras. And then, of course, the shenanigans about the next match, which he eventually forfeited because the FIDE would not give in to all his demands.

The US championship was internal. We had a special person who stepped aside and no international rules (which applied) were broken. You are the commie sympethizer for saying the US didn't bring the right player when it was an internal national choice. Fischer only insisted on a fair prize to the game when the commie cheaters made a good living and Fischer didn't make a penny and needed the prize money. Every professional chess player owes a debt to Fischer for demanding a fair fee. You mock Fischer for demanding what every person knows today was right. I don't know if I should even speak to you anymore for saying that. You don't get it.

 

[Suddenly]

If he wasn't, "he had a mental illness" isn't a fair claim.

By that standard, neither is your claim that he wasn't.

 

[ddt]

I accuse them of cheating in the interzonals.

And from those alleged quick draws between Soviets, both players magically got a whole point each, or what? More substantiation is needed than parrotting a wild claim from Fischer.

I see how you can equate the two

I see a complete lack of counterarguments.

Tiamanov lost 6-0 why didn't you mention him in your commie sympathizing.

You may have missed the word "champion". Taimanov (mind the spelling) never was. Sorry for forgetting Botvinnik, btw.

The US championship was internal. We had a special person who stepped aside and no international rules (which applied) were broken. You are the commie sympethizer for saying the US didn't bring the right player when it was an internal national choice.

Re-read my post. I didn't address whether it was legal or not. But the US championship also was the zonal tournament and if Benko had insisted, he had gone himself to the Interzonal.

Fischer only insisted on a fair prize to the game when the commie cheaters made a good living and Fischer didn't make a penny and needed the prize money.

No wonder he didn't make a penny. He hadn't been playing for 18 months. And after the Reykjavik match, he hardly played either.

Every professional chess player owes a debt to Fischer for demanding a fair fee. You mock Fischer for demanding what every person knows today was right. I don't know if I should even speak to you anymore for saying that. You don't get it.

I don't mind if you respond or not; you're just foaming at the mouth anyway.

 

[Senex]

I don't mind if you respond or not; you're just foaming at the mouth anyway.

I expect nothing less from the communist side of this chess forum. Just because you might be an atheist didn't have to mean you went to the dark side of chess and rooted for those people who were taught special since first grade because they showed some promise.

You lost your way.

 

[Checkmite]

By that standard, neither is your claim that he wasn't.

Grasping at straws. That he wasn't mentally ill is the null hypothesis.

There's no evidence that even remotely suggests that Fischer's antisemitic drivel was the result of some "mental disease" rather than the fact that he was just another common racist douchebag, and absent an actual medical diagnosis by a doctor who's qualified to make one, trying to trivialize or downplay Fischer's douchebaggery by dismissing it as an unfortunate and involuntary symptom of a non-existent medical condition is wishful thinking on the part of his cult of sycophants.

I like how those of us who don't venerate him are communist sympathizers, though. I say we call this kind of reasoning "Fischer Random Debate".

 

[Cleon]

I expect nothing less from the communist side of this chess forum.

Yes, yes, everyone's a communist.