Board political breakdown.

[ImaginalDisc]

Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.08


Hmmm. . . looks like I'm more moderate than I thought.

Better get out there and start burning some flags, smoking some pot, and aborting some babies to get my numbers up.

I'm still mistified as to how I became so liberal without ever doing any of those things.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Thanks for the poll Upchurch. One of the questions that I get when I describe the forum to other people is what is the general nature of the political views of the participants.



As of this writing there have been about four people (3 % of the poll participants) that have identified themselves as social conservatives. I was surprised that the number was that high.

I have no idea what I would call meself.

I was also surpised at how few social/fiscal liberals there were. Given the number of Walmart is evil threads that pop up around here I would have thought there would have been more fiscal liberal voters.

why would opposition to Walmart be fiscally liberal? Why is this "liberal"? It smacks to me of conservative fiscal policies - not liberal ones.

There seems to be an undercurrent of views that strongly favor unions around here another indicator (I would have thought) of fiscal liberalism.

this is where I have problems with trying to answer this poll (fascinating though I find it) Support for unionism isn't liberal it is conservative. Unionism seeks entrenchment of the status quo, it opposes competition and free labor policies how on earth is it "liberal"?

I guess I am running into the US redefinitions? I sometimes find it hard to talk with my neighbors on this because they seem to think liberal = Left Wing or socialist and somehow I don't see the state taking control of the means of production as being "liberal"

 

[slingblade]

this is where I have problems with trying to answer this poll (fascinating though I find it) Support for unionism isn't liberal it is conservative. Unionism seeks entrenchment of the status quo, it opposes competition and free labor policies how on earth is it "liberal"?

I guess I am running into the US redefinitions? I sometimes find it hard to talk with my neighbors on this because they seem to think liberal = Left Wing or socialist and somehow I don't see the state taking control of the means of production as being "liberal"

Not the unionism with which I am familiar. My parents were both strongly Democrat and strongly pro-union in my childhood. My dad rose to become a fairly big local union muckety-muck with McDonnell-Douglas in the '70s. My mom was a shop steward at Zebco-Brunswick. These are large corporations in the U.S. and McD-D is (or was?) heavily involved in military aircraft design and construction.

The notion I got of unionism from them was of an effort to give or return some of the power within the means of production to the workers, not to the state. That's Socialism, isn't it? Democratic Socialism? Their unions sought to change the status-quo, taking power away from the narrow group of corporate bosses and giving it to or sharing it among the workers.

I don't know the unionist policy on market competition. What I know about this comes from childhood, and I can't say I've done much research on it as an adult.

Free labor restrictions? Yes, I guess so, as I recall the conviction of my parents that if all workers didn't belong to the union, it made the union weaker overall. Knowing them, however, I'm sure my mother didn't approve of bullying or intimidating people to join, but my father quite probably did.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Economic: -1.75
Social: -5.18

mine:


Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56

When I was looking over the site I didn't see any "well known" names in my little quadrant!

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Not the unionism with which I am familiar. My parents were both strongly Democrat and strongly pro-union in my childhood. My dad rose to become a fairly big local union muckety-muck with McDonnell-Douglas in the '70s. My mom was a shop steward at Zebco-Brunswick. These are large corporations in the U.S. and McD-D is (or was?) heavily involved in military aircraft design and construction.

I come from a long line of militant coal union members, I've been a shop steward in engineering unions and I have stood on picket lines. Even if I do say so m yself I have pretty good leftie dna.

So given the fact that your parents were employees of big corporations and involved in sharing out the production - how does that make them different from the managers? The fact that unions in big corporations seek ever more stringent job protection for their members and, ultimately the exclusion of non members from the workplace - how is this liberal?

The notion I got of unionism from them was of an effort to give or return some of the power within the means of production to the workers, not to the state. That's Socialism, isn't it? Democratic Socialism?

I am not sure that it is, but I am not dogmatic about it.

Their unions sought to change the status-quo, taking power away from the narrow group of corporate bosses and giving it to or sharing it among the workers.

It is more akin to going back to guilds. At least that is one of the conclusions I came to. My disenchantment with unions has been an ongoing process since I watched the engineering unions in the 70's and 80's in England cause their own members untold misery thanks to their reflexive adherence to left wing ideology at the expense of the jobs of the people they were suppose to represent.

Free labor restrictions? Yes, I guess so, as I recall the conviction of my parents that if all workers didn't belong to the union, it made the union weaker overall. Knowing them, however, I'm sure my mother didn't approve of bullying or intimidating people to join, but my father quite probably did.

You made some good points, I hope we can continue the discussion

 

[Cain]

I was also surpised at how few social/fiscal liberals there were. Given the number of Walmart is evil threads that pop up around here I would have thought there would have been more fiscal liberal voters.

There seems to be an undercurrent of views that strongly favor unions around here another indicator (I would have thought) of fiscal liberalism.

I think the word "fiscal" biases the question. Jay Leno described himself the other night as "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative." But what does that even mean? Can Bill Clinton describe himself in those terms (inspite of DOMA, his military policy, etc?)

What people are REALLY interested in learning is whether or not a person agrees with the stated aims of the two major parties. Generally, of course, these aims overlap: Stronger America, freer America, Richer America, blah blah blah. Plus, the Democrats are so pussy-whipped that even their stated aims are unbelievably weak. What about pot legalization or gay marriage? It's not there. All they have is abortion. The Republicans talk about balancing budgets, but always somehow fail (inspite of having a Republican President and a Republican-controlled Congress). An indicator is the Norquist "no tax pledge" that all of them sign. Republicans, so far as I know, do not take a "balance our budget" pledge, even if it would be more responsible.

The differences between the hardcore economic conservatives on this board, and the so-called liberals/moderates can be kind of obvious at times. The former will say things like virtually all business regulations are illegitimate, or exacerbate the situation. Nearly all unions are terrible (because there's government interference propping them up). Minimum wage laws are bad, and living wage laws are perverted. Taxation is another word for theft, and redistribution is evil. These sort of people will also rarely take the initiative to criticize corporations ("Yeah, I disagree with corporate welfare.")

Now the vast majority of people, even in a relatively conservative country like the United States, take a far more nuanced view. Almost everyone, for example, believed the government had an obligation to the Katrina victims in New Orleans. Everyone is also upset about the fraud. People will support tax cuts, but they will not support tax cuts if the issue is framed differently (such as tax cuts versus paying down the debt, social security, healthcare, the environment, military defense, and so on down the line).

See for instance this White House memo, starting a couple paragraphs down on "Your role is..." http://thepriceofloyalty.ronsuskind.com/thebushfiles/archives/000058.html

The problem with polls such as this is that the right-wing has been very successful in the ways in which it frames issues. "Oh, you think everyone deserves healthcare? Well, that's socialism. It's literally socialized medicine!" The military is also socialized. Conservatives even glorify military life, even if it involves wearing uniforms and leading a highly regimented life dictated by powers above. Look at how Castro dresses up.

The mushy "moderates" on this board, who probably do not participate in the vast majority of discussions, define themselves against these people with a well-formed ideology. "I think government has a role to play in somethings -- global warming, environment, workplace safety, minimal aid to the poor -- but "sometimes goes too far." They're "moderates" since they can attribute blame to the excesses of the market (emblems of ruthless capitalism like Walmart) as well as blame excesses of government (funding for some stupid program). However, others on this board will almost always blame government for everything, and if Walmart is evil, or deregulation doesn't work, then, sorry, if you look deep enough you'll discover that it's actually the fault of government. Moreover, and this does bear constant reptition, it's worth noting that libertarians and conservatives on this board not only think government intervention is inefficient, but that it's illegitimate; the notion that government is overstepping a sacred philosophical boundary. For example, it's secondary that minimum wage laws lead to inflation, economic inefficiency, etc. What's problematic is that the government is butting it's head in and restricting the negotation of a free contract in a free market.

 

[Dragonrock]

That seems more Libertarian than Liberal to me.

If you read down my post a bit further, I state that libertarians are generally socially liberal.

 

[Dragonrock]

Well, I do see a whole lot of BS in this thread, which is to be expected. How can we classify the Greens/Socialists as "socially conservative"??

Well, "We" didn't classify Greens as "socially conservative", I did. My reason for that is I believe a socially conservative person feels the need to control the personal lives of other people.

 

[bob_kark]

Well, this kinda surprised me:

Economic Left/Right: 1.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

I thought I'd end up being a bit more moderate on both counts, shows what I know.

I do have to say however, some of the questions were a bit loaded.

 

[Meffy]

"Always be careful where a question is pointed. It might be loaded."
-- me, just now

 

[Cain]

Well, "We" didn't classify Greens as "socially conservative", I did. My reason for that is I believe a socially conservative person feels the need to control the personal lives of other people.

Well, "we" is merely an expression, and if I recall correctly, the thread starter agreed with you. In any event, we can see how legislation can protect employers from regulating a person's private life. Should an employer be allowed to fire a person for his sexual orientation, political beliefs, recreational drug use (assuming these characteristics and activities do not affect work). By conventional standards Greens and socialists are not by any stretch of the imagination classified as "social conservatives," although I am pleased to see you recognize your view as personal and idiosyncratic.

 

[daenku32]

As long as you are in the majority, you can be social conservative and fiscal liberal, and not be any better than someone socially and fiscally conservative.

Mobs and money easily compensate for the lack of offical representation.

 

[a_unique_person]

Jesus H. Christ on a playground, did you get your lunch money stolen every day when you were a kid? Why is it every time three or four guys disagree with you or your intellectual confreres, they're suddenly a bunch of bullies? Man, if there were a "Weenie" category in the current poll, I know where you'd fit.

How do you explain the number of 'liberals' who don't post here, but vote in polls? I have had PMs from people asking me how I put up with it. I explain to them that most of the US people, for example, are ordinary moderate people, despite vocal minority who readily resort to abuse.

 

[Globert]

Economic Left/Right: 0.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.51

small 'L' libertarian, middle o the road Economicaly.

none of the answers could be "none of the above" so I dont think my apathy was well represented.


-edit for dyslexic tendencies.


-Globe

 

[Darat]

Economic Left/Right: -3.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.90

I do wish they'd start to add a "pragmatic" part to these compasses, my responses are based on what I think are best overall for "humanity" and not fettered by an idealogical approach. So whether a particular solution can be labeled "free-market", "capitalism", "fascism" and so on should not have any relevance to deciding whether a particular solution is the best available solution.

 

[Cain]

How do you explain the number of 'liberals' who don't post here, but vote in polls? I have had PMs from people asking me how I put up with it. I explain to them that most of the US people, for example, are ordinary moderate people, despite vocal minority who readily resort to abuse.

In other words, you're admitting liberals are in fact pussies...?

 

[DreadNiK]

You mean like this one? www.politicalcompass.org

Exactly like that one. That one.

 

[Zep]

I'll make it easy:

• Conservative = patriotic Americans
• Liberal = treacherous, traiterous slime

Hope this helps.

Yep. Helps us understand what's going on in your head, anyway...

 

[BPSCG]

I'll make it easy:

• Conservative = patriotic Americans
• Liberal = treacherous, traiterous slime

Hope this helps.

Yep. Helps us understand what's going on in your head, anyway...

Oh, Jeeze, that's what happens when I post something while I'm tired. I should have posted as follows:

I'll make it easy:

• Conservative = patriotic Americans
• Liberal = treacherous, traitorous slime

Hope this helps.

My apologies for the misseplling and lack of smiley.

 

[Dancing David]

Great poll. Break out!

Social liberal, fiscal conservative.

I believe in universal health care because the cost of administration in canada is less than the us, I think we should fund education, policew those who would harm other, encourage a wide variety of capitalist ventures and have an efficient military.