BNP leaflet through my door

wollery said:
There are two essential types of nationalism.

The first are the right wing racist nationalists, who usually aren't interested in independence, but in getting the <insert ethnic group of choice> out of their country, because, obviously, that would solve all the country's problems. As far as I can tell they rarely have any other concrete policies.

Then there are the independence nationalist parties. These parties are pretty rare, but are
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Not so rare in the UK
 
Chaos said:
I have no evidence, so far, that the SNP is of the icky sort. However, taking this to mean that nationalism, as a whole, is harmless, as you appear to be doing, is at best naive. At worst, it is an insult to all those who are on the receiving end of the racism, bigotry and hatemongering which, to my knowledge, every single nationalist party except for the SNP fosters.

Do some research on the Front National in France, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, or the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) or Deutsche Volksunion (DVU) in Germany. You´ll see that nationalism is not as nice, neither always not usually, as you paint it.
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If you actually thought I said that nationalism, as a whole, is harmless, then either I have expressed myself extraordinarily badly, or you really didn't read what I wrote.

In the middle of a carbon-copy diatribe against the BNP, I merely pointed out that it is not reasonable to paint every group with the word "national" in the name, or even every group labelled "nationalist" with the same brush without enquiring what the group actually stands for.

I'm just major-league fed up with the Labour party trying to drag the SNP into the gutter by going on about "the darker side of nationalism" at every available opportunity (or even without an opportunity), and people who should know better assuming that the SNP is the Scottish branch of the BNP. (Actually, there is eyewitness evidence that Labour canvassers in Asian commuities in Scotland have been telling people not to vote SNP for exactly that reason....)

So you have actually got my position a bit back to front.

Rolfe.
 
funk de fino said:
Not so rare in the UK
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SNP, Plaid Cymru, Mebyon Kernow all have independence as their primary objective. (OK I confess I think Mebyon Kernow are a joke but they did beat Labour in the Euro-elections :D ) There's another outfit whose name I can't remember that wants to take an independent Scotland out of the EU, I think it was formed by a few people who left the SNP because they didn't agree with EU membership. The Green Party and the Scottish Socialist Party (and its offspring, whatever they're called) and one or two other small parties are also pro-independence.

I did enounter another right-wing group that was supposed to be getting organised to stand on an independence platform, on the grounds that the SNP is too left-wing for their tastes and they wanted to appeal to business owners and capitalists of all descriptions, but they've been pretty quiet lately.

The SNP and Plaid Cymru do quite well in elections, to the point where the Plaid was in coalition government with Labour in Wales (maybe still is, sorry, I'm a bit behind), and the SNP has been running a minority government in Scotland for the past two years. The SNP in fact won the Euro-election in Scotland quite comfortably, with over 29% of the vote (compared to Labour getting just over 20%). This was seen as very positive, because it improved markedly on the 2007 Scottish election result where they only just pipped Labour, and it was achieved in the context of having a mid-term SNP government actually in place.

The current sentiment in Scotland seems to be swinging to the SNP from Labour, and the expenses scandal isn't hurting that. Anne Maguire (Labour) got so petulant on the radio the other day, on the subject of an independence referendum, that I could actually hear Gavin Esler (BBC interviewer) shaking his head.

Rolfe.
 
After seeing the results from the Euros, I can only see the next Tory govt pushing us closer to the Holy Grail of Independance.

I have also seen the shift in the English based parties attitudes and descriptions of the SNP. The people of Scotland (in my opinion) are pleasantly surprised at how well the SNP have done since taking the reins. I do not always agree with some of the more lefty stuff but I think they have been pretty restrained so far.

Altnough you can never be happy in anyone voting for the BNP, I was happy to see it was a whole other level less than voted for the morons down south.
 
When I was canvassing in Glasgow East, I was chased away from one door with the words "vote BNP". There was no BNP candidate, thankfully. It does show that people exist who will support the scumbags though.

Rolfe.
 
Nogbad said:
The SNP are in charge at Holyrood. They are a cross between old Labour and Liberals (closest I can come to describe them really). So I think they would pobably continue as is. One problem might be that the Scottish Labour Party free of the London wing might drift back onto their patch. However, Labour tend to be more authoritarian and prone to have an opinion about everything. The last two years the touch of Government has felt very light. I quite like it and I was worried when they took over. If they carry on like this they have my vote.
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Thanks for the answer. So when the SNP proves competent at administration, there is no reason for their voters to switch back to Labour or Libdem. And for those voters who think SNP is too moderate (and thus Nu Labour too), there's the SSP. I can see why Labour is scared by the rise in support for the SNP - it means a long-term loss of voters in their prime bastion.
 
Chaos said:
Do some research on the Front National in France, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, or the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) or Deutsche Volksunion (DVU) in Germany. You´ll see that nationalism is not as nice, neither always not usually, as you paint it.
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You forgot the Dutch "Freedom Party" of Wilders. :D
 
funk de fino said:
The people of Scotland (in my opinion) are pleasantly surprised at how well the SNP have done since taking the reins. I do not always agree with some of the more lefty stuff but I think they have been pretty restrained so far.
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There are people in the SNP from pretty much all moderate strands of political persuasion who are happily co-existing because they see independence as being far more important than having an argument about levels of state subsidy. How that will play out post independence I think remains to be seen.

The SNP was a lot more right-wing in the 1930s, but in effect when they saw where that was going in Europe they took off like a scalded cat. Also, the Scottish people in general tend to left-wing views, so any party that hopes to represent them should be generally left of centre.

Nevertheless, the early SNP gains were in traditionally Conservative areas. This was explained to me as a result of getting the non-unionised farm worker vote. Unionised industrial workers voted Labour en masse in the central belt, however the farm workers in the north-east traditionally voted the way their bosses told them to vote - Conservative. When they kicked over those perticular traces, they went SNP. This has not stopped constant sniping at the SNP as "Tartan Tories" ever since.

In fact the SNP voting record during the Thatcher years was much less supportive of Thatcher than the Labour record, but who cares. "Tartan Tories!" Er, you can't be "too left-wing" and "Tartan Tories" at the same time, so maybe the balance is about right for now.

Rolfe.
 
It would actually be a fight between English and Scots (or Scots English, if you want to be awkward). Gaelic is only spoken by a few of us.
 
I tend to think that if you are presented with a nationalist party that exists within a country that already has independence you're looking at fascists. On the other hand when someone presents themselves as a nationalist in a country or region that is not independent you are probably not looking at a fascist. Of course that's not always the case but it's a reasonable rule of thumb to start from.
 
Camillus said:
I tend to think that if you are presented with a nationalist party that exists within a country that already has independence you're looking at fascists. On the other hand when someone presents themselves as a nationalist in a country or region that is not independent you are probably not looking at a fascist. Of course that's not always the case but it's a reasonable rule of thumb to start from.
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Wery well put.
 
I was just thinking of a famous political group who once managed to get "Socialist" in their name and weren't anything of the sort, likewise a whole host of Eastern European Counties who worked in the word "People's" or even "Democratic" and perhaps didn't quite understand the words properly....
 
Camillus said:
I tend to think that if you are presented with a nationalist party that exists within a country that already has independence you're looking at fascists. On the other hand when someone presents themselves as a nationalist in a country or region that is not independent you are probably not looking at a fascist. Of course that's not always the case but it's a reasonable rule of thumb to start from.
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Sounds good.

ddt said:
You forgot the Dutch "Freedom Party" of Wilders. :biggrin:
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Oh yes, my bad. Are those "Pim Fortuyn Party" clowns still active?

I also forgot the FPÖ (Austrian Liberal Party) of the late and unlamented Jörg Haider. And those freaks who campaigned on a "Switzerland to the Swiss - throw out the evil foreign scum" platform.
 
Camillus said:
I tend to think that if you are presented with a nationalist party that exists within a country that already has independence you're looking at fascists. On the other hand when someone presents themselves as a nationalist in a country or region that is not independent you are probably not looking at a fascist. Of course that's not always the case but it's a reasonable rule of thumb to start from.
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That's very nicely put. Never thought of it in quite that way.
 
Chaos said:
Oh yes, my bad. Are those "Pim Fortuyn Party" clowns still active?
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No, they've dissolved the party (LPF). After their entry into parliament in 2002 with 26, they really acted as clowns: infighting between MPs, MPs that split off to form their one-(wo)man fractions, even 2 LPF ministers fighting with each other which led to the fall of the government after 87 days. It was rather surprising they still obtained 8 seats in 2003.

Chaos said:
I also forgot the FPÖ (Austrian Liberal Party) of the late and unlamented Jörg Haider. And those freaks who campaigned on a "Switzerland to the Swiss - throw out the evil foreign scum" platform.
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And don't forget the Italian neo-fascists, led by Ms. Mussolini (granddaughter of).

Actually, calling such parties clowns or freaks is not right - except for the Fortuyn Party then, they really were a leaderless ragtag bunch of nitwits. But people like Wilders in the Netherlands, Filip de Winter in Flanders, Haider in Austria, are smart-dressed, intelligent, sharp-tongued politicians who know what they're doing. They're no clowns to be laughed at, they're serious and to be reckoned with.
 
Anyone see Flight of the Conchords last night.
Yes it is relevant.

Very few people I know voted. I voted green because it was somewhere to stick a cross. I class myself as working class and am proud of that, as long as it has not been highjacked by the far right. Could not bring myself to vote Labour.

To keep the extremists out I think people should be made to vote.
 
Scottish independence is a great idea. England, NI and Wales can claim the debts of RBS back from Scotland if it happens in the next year or so.:)
 
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