BNP leaflet through my door

[geni]

To be honest I find it hard to fathom what 'the average BNP supporter' is thinking.
Maybe they should do those jobs better, then they might be seen as a more reliable service than whatever cheap off-the books illegal immigrant labour is apparently 'stealing their jobs'.

The problem with that is that UK pay is higher than eastern european to the point where the best eastern europeans can be recruited. About the only advantage your average worker in these areas has are better contacts and in some cases better english skills.

 

[geni]

Hmmm, tell that to all the 20-whatsit countires in Europe that have achieved independence in the past century or so.

Not to many compared to the number of german, italian and random free cities merged in that time.

Seems to me it's fine for a small independent country to want to retain its independence,

Moresnet? Couto Mixto?

and would you suggest that Denmark would be better off as one of the Lander of Germany,

Language barrier would be a pain.

and Norway really made a big mistake voting for independence from Sweden,

Sweden has been invaded fewer times than norway in the last century or so.

and Ireland should never even have considered leaving the UK because that was icky....

We haven't seen the end of how the bubble bursting there will work out.

Don't be daft. If it's OK to be an independent country,

Who said it was?

and OK to want to stay that way, why is it suddenly "icky" to aspire to that status?

Existing nation states have to be accepted for the time being because well getting rid of them would be rather difficult.

However nationalism has nothing to do with statehood. Pomerania for example didn't really have nationalism.

Nationalism with it's nation in arms concept can never be considered a safe aspiration by anyone. It is however something we have to accept and deal with.

 

[Rolfe]

Heck, I reckon I'd be on their list despite actually being white and British - don't need to have a different colour of skin to be an ethnic minority, it just makes you a bit harder to pick out!

Wouldn't you be their poster boy? I mean, I think the ur-protoplasm you evolved from probably came out of the Minch....

Rolfe.

 

[Toke]

Wouldn't you be their poster boy? I mean, I think the ur-protoplasm you evolved from probably came out of the Minch....

Rolfe.

A posterboy who does not support the party line?
I am pretty sure that is much worse than just being a "darkie."

 

[Architect]

Naw, there's no way they'll be happy about the whole "language and culture thing". Suas leis na Ghaidhlig!

 

[Chaos]

Hmmm, tell that to all the 20-whatsit countires in Europe that have achieved independence in the past century or so.

Seems to me it's fine for a small independent country to want to retain its independence, and would you suggest that Denmark would be better off as one of the Lander of Germany, and Norway really made a big mistake voting for independence from Sweden, and Ireland should never even have considered leaving the UK because that was icky....

Don't be daft. If it's OK to be an independent country, and OK to want to stay that way, why is it suddenly "icky" to aspire to that status?

Rolfe.

Oh, please. I didn´t say any of that, and I´d be a lot happier if you stopped putting those words into my mouth.

If you take a look around at the many flavors of nationalist parties out there, you´ll quickly notice that they´re not about independence, they´re about the old "Whateverland to the Whateverians", "Darkies/Ragheads/Commies out", "Preserve the pure Whateverian culture" crap; most of them probably also have pictures of a certain Austrian corporal hanging on their office walls, or would if it was allowed. Assuming the SNP is different, fine - but don´t try to pretend that the BNP, or their counterparts in other countries, are just harmless little independence-minded counterparts of your SNP.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, please. I didn´t say any of that, and I´d be a lot happier if you stopped putting those words into my mouth.

If you take a look around at the many flavors of nationalist parties out there, you´ll quickly notice that they´re not about independence, they´re about the old "Whateverland to the Whateverians", "Darkies/Ragheads/Commies out", "Preserve the pure Whateverian culture" crap; most of them probably also have pictures of a certain Austrian corporal hanging on their office walls, or would if it was allowed. Assuming the SNP is different, fine - but don´t try to pretend that the BNP, or their counterparts in other countries, are just harmless little independence-minded counterparts of your SNP.

The start of this train of the conversation was my astonishment when a Portuguese colleage seemed to equate voting for the BNP (in England) with voting for the SNP (in Scotland). This seemed to spark off several comments along the lines that "nationalism" of any description was icky, or words to that effect.

The BNP are a bunch of bigoted, racist scumbags. It's unfortunate that the SNP, a party that campaigns for Scotland to become an independent state in the EU, welcomes members of all ethnic origins (and had the country's first Asian MSP, who sadly died recently), and expels people from the party even for making anti-English remarks, has a similar name to these lowlifes.

I don't take offence when people make an innocent mistake (though I do think that making the comparison while sitting in my car with a visible SNP sticker on the windscreen was a bit short-sighted, not to mention surely knowing that the SNP had not only won the election in a canter but has been running the bloody Scottish government for the past two years without showing any signs of repatriating anyone, in fact having fought the Westminster government to stop them deporting asylum seekers). I do get mildly miffed when I'm handed blanket statements that nationalism is evil per se, from people who would probably campaign themselves if their country were to be subsumed within a larger neighbour.

Rolfe.

 

[Nogbad]

The start of this train of the conversation was my astonishment when a Portuguese colleage seemed to equate voting for the BNP (in England) with voting for the SNP (in Scotland). This seemed to spark off several comments along the lines that "nationalism" of any description was icky, or words to that effect.

The BNP are a bunch of bigoted, racist scumbags. It's unfortunate that the SNP, a party that campaigns for Scotland to become an independent state in the EU, welcomes members of all ethnic origins (and had the country's first Asian MSP, who sadly died recently), and expels people from the party even for making anti-English remarks, has a similar name to these lowlifes.

I don't take offence when people make an innocent mistake (though I do think that making the comparison while sitting in my car with a visible SNP sticker on the windscreen was a bit short-sighted, not to mention surely knowing that the SNP had not only won the election in a canter but has been running the bloody Scottish government for the past two years without showing any signs of repatriating anyone, in fact having fought the Westminster government to stop them deporting asylum seekers). I do get mildly miffed when I'm handed blanket statements that nationalism is evil per se, from people who would probably campaign themselves if their country were to be subsumed within a larger neighbour.

Rolfe.

The main difference between the BNP and the SNP is that the Labour Party really hates the SNP.

Splitter! being their main cry.

 

[Rolfe]

Ouch!

The Labour party isn't exactly popular with the SNP either, but the sheer depth of visceral hatred coming the other way is hard to comprehend.

Many SNP members have similar political leanings to Labour members, and many Labour members actually support independence. But the political threat to the Labour safe seats and tickets for the Westminster gravy train sparks off a pretty nasty reaction. They won't hate the BNP until they represent the same sort of threat.

Which hopefully will be never and a bit longer.

Rolfe.

 

[Architect]

It's the threat to what many in Labour see as safe seats that's the problem, I'm sure.

 

[Rolfe]

Got it in one.

Rolfe.

 

[Architect]

I was just agreeing with you.

Makes a change from looking at this Velux catelogue and a pile of "as existing" drawings Douglas finished off today......

 

[Nogbad]

Ouch!

The Labour party isn't exactly popular with the SNP either, but the sheer depth of visceral hatred coming the other way is hard to comprehend.

Many SNP members have similar political leanings to Labour members, and many Labour members actually support independence. But the political threat to the Labour safe seats and tickets for the Westminster gravy train sparks off a pretty nasty reaction. They won't hate the BNP until they represent the same sort of threat.

Which hopefully will be never and a bit longer.

Rolfe.

It really is the splitter thing.

Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham, a colourful and rather endearing radical is responsible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cunninghame-Graham

 

[Agatha]

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/

 

[ddt]

This thread has veered off towards discussion of the SNP anyway, so a couple of questions on that that come to mind.

If/when Scotland gains independence, what will become of the SNP? It'll then have achieved its main goal - does it have clear political goals and ideology beyond that or would its supporters go to the ideological-based political parties?

And what would become of Gordon Brown?

 

[Nogbad]

This thread has veered off towards discussion of the SNP anyway, so a couple of questions on that that come to mind.

If/when Scotland gains independence, what will become of the SNP? It'll then have achieved its main goal - does it have clear political goals and ideology beyond that or would its supporters go to the ideological-based political parties?

And what would become of Gordon Brown?

The SNP are in charge at Holyrood. They are a cross between old Labour and Liberals (closest I can come to describe them really). So I think they would pobably continue as is. One problem might be that the Scottish Labour Party free of the London wing might drift back onto their patch. However, Labour tend to be more authoritarian and prone to have an opinion about everything. The last two years the touch of Government has felt very light. I quite like it and I was worried when they took over. If they carry on like this they have my vote.

Gordon Brown? No idea. He might look for a role in Holyrood but he has paid scant regard to the place so that might not wear too well with his own party. Ex Prime Ministers tend to retire like Wilson, Thatcher, Major and Blair. Heath was an exception really. I think he stayed on just to annoy Thatcher. He might declare himself British and seek a safe Labour seat in England (if such a beast exists at the moment).

 

[Chaos]

The start of this train of the conversation was my astonishment when a Portuguese colleage seemed to equate voting for the BNP (in England) with voting for the SNP (in Scotland). This seemed to spark off several comments along the lines that "nationalism" of any description was icky, or words to that effect.

I have no evidence, so far, that the SNP is of the icky sort. However, taking this to mean that nationalism, as a whole, is harmless, as you appear to be doing, is at best naive. At worst, it is an insult to all those who are on the receiving end of the racism, bigotry and hatemongering which, to my knowledge, every single nationalist party except for the SNP fosters.

Do some research on the Front National in France, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, or the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) or Deutsche Volksunion (DVU) in Germany. You´ll see that nationalism is not as nice, neither always not usually, as you paint it.

 

[Architect]

So presumably you're deeply worried about UKIP, which is a nationalist party in all but name? And how do you feel about the right wing of the Tory party?

 

[Toke]

I see a difference in the national independence part of SNP as compared to BNP and others.

Architect and Rolfe have also so far been remarkebly good at hiding their racist viewpoints.

 

[wollery]

I have no evidence, so far, that the SNP is of the icky sort. However, taking this to mean that nationalism, as a whole, is harmless, as you appear to be doing, is at best naive. At worst, it is an insult to all those who are on the receiving end of the racism, bigotry and hatemongering which, to my knowledge, every single nationalist party except for the SNP fosters.

Do some research on the Front National in France, Vlaams Belang in Belgium, or the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) or Deutsche Volksunion (DVU) in Germany. You´ll see that nationalism is not as nice, neither always not usually, as you paint it.

There are two essential types of nationalism.

The first are the right wing racist nationalists, who usually aren't interested in independence, but in getting the <insert ethnic group of choice> out of their country, because, obviously, that would solve all the country's problems. As far as I can tell they rarely have any other concrete policies.

Then there are the independence nationalist parties. These parties are pretty rare, but are