Blacks are under Attack!

[Caper]

Don't think what will work?

What ever fancy government program you can dream up that will magically create equality.

 

[leftysergeant]

Comparing the Zimmerman-Martin case to Emmet Till sure is.

It is only a matter of degrees.

 

[RandFan]

And this will help things.

And this is substantive to the conversation because?

 

[WildCat]

It is only a matter of degrees.

Right, and those are wildly different degrees.

 

[RandFan]

What ever fancy government program you can dream up that will magically create equality.

"Magically"? Poisoning the well? Straw man? I find this telling that the subject brings out such irrationality.

Caper, I'm more than happy to have a discussion with you and tell you what I think can help. Could you engage with me in good faith? Or are you too invested in your world view?

 

[Caper]

And this is substantive to the conversation because?

Because it was institutional racism. The institution of Education is racist because it assigns homework. This hurts blacks and mexicans because they are more likely to come from a home not conducive to doing homework. Thus homework is racist..... apparently.

 

[RandFan]

Because it was institutional racism. The institution of Education is racist because it assigns homework. This hurts blacks and mexicans because they are more likely to come from a home not conducive to doing homework. Thus homework is racist..... apparently.

So, you refuse to engage in a substantive conversation. This is all a joke to you, right? As best I can figure you believe the following.

• You don't think the problems are cultural (environmental).
• You think stereotypes speak to a deeper meaning (genetic).
• Mexicans and blacks are inherently more lazy and irresponsible than whites.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

It's really not about reparations. Oh, it could be but I'm not sure anyone in this thread is arguing that we need to come up with a figure for past wrongs and divide that among the black population in America.

No.

• Acknowledge that blacks suffer disproportionately due to the legacy of the racism.
• Try to end the inequality.
• By all means focus on poverty of all people. It's a false choice to claim we can't do both.

I don't think anyone has implied that. The problems in the black community are particularly bad due to institutional racism that has not yet ended. We are arguing that because of that we need to focus on the community to end the problems. No one is saying don't help other people. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. The black community might need targeted assistance so trying to make this a false choice helps no one.

i dont think this is a false choice. you can try to end inequality or you can try to create more targeted assistance to black communities. you cant do both because targeted assistance (where the target is a particular ethnic group) is a form of inequality. it may be a necessary inequality, but inequality nonetheless

and of course it has its own consequences, someone might be facing the same issues, but is unable to get help because they arent black, which can create resentment and lead to racist opinions. things like affirmative action can also reinforce racism by appearing to support the idea that black people cant make it on their own and need more help to get by

 

[RandFan]

i dont think this is a false choice. you can try to end inequality or you can try to create more targeted assistance to black communities. you cant do both because targeted assistance (where the target is a particular ethnic group) is a form of inequality.

I reject that. It assumes all things are equal. That the foundational problems of poverty in the white community are identical in the black community and that both can be addressed the same. From what I understand that is not true. But I'm not an expert. I don't assert what we must do as you do. I'm very skeptical of categorically excluding options.

...and of course it has its own consequences, someone might be facing the same issues, but is unable to get help because they arent black, which can create resentment and lead to racist opinions. things like affirmative action can also reinforce racism by appearing to support the idea that black people cant make it on their own and need more help to get by

Yep. There are always trade offs. I'm not an expert. I cannot assert as you do what is best and I'm rather skeptical of your exclusion of the middle and basing that on assertion and intuition

 

[Caper]

[*]Mexicans and blacks are inherently more lazy and irresponsible than whites.
[/LIST]

I definitely agree with Carola's video, where he talks about certain cultures valuing education more then others... and that's true. Start there IMO... but I don't know how much whitey can help with that.

 

[Caper]

[*]You think stereotypes speak to a deeper meaning (genetic).

Is it a stereo type if it's true. Blacks are more athletic (as a group average) then anyone else.

But yes I realize it's incredibly simplified.

 

[RandFan]

I definitely agree with Carola's video, where he talks about certain cultures valuing education more then others... and that's true. Start there IMO... but I don't know how much whitey can help with that.

So, earlier you challenged me on my statement that the disparity was due to environmental factors. You gave the example that blacks tend to excel and that was apparently due to inherent factors.

You now agree with me that the disparity is cultural (environmental)?

 

[RandFan]

Is it a stereo type if it's true. Blacks are more athletic (as a group average) then anyone else.

Would this preclude all cultural contributions?

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I reject that. It assumes all things are equal. That the foundational problems of poverty in the white community are identical in the black community and that both can be addressed the same. From what I understand that is not true. But I'm not an expert. I don't assert what we must do as you do. I'm very skeptical of categorically excluding options.

creating one program to help poverty in black communities and an entirely separate one to address poverty in white communities assumes things as well, such as black communities and white communities cannot have the same problems, and that the problems of black person A are largely identical to the problems of black person B (and of course that the primary cause of all their problems is racism)

obviously any program will have to deal with each person individually, and of course there will be large differences between whats needed in different regions and geographical areas, but i think creating special programs based on ethnicity is the wrong way to go

 

[ravdin]

Do you think incarceration rates are the result of bias? Including for major crimes such as murder?

As a matter of fact, yes I do.

 

[ravdin]

Sounds like a great way to pick a surgeon!

Hmm... could it be then that the pursuit of social equality as an end in itself may not be all it's cracked up to be?

 

[RandFan]

creating one program to help poverty in black communities and an entirely separate one to address poverty in white communities assumes things as well, such as black communities and white communities cannot have the same problems...

I don't agree. Of course they can have the same problems. However, I will acknowledge that there will be conflict regardless of the solution we adopt.

...and that the problems of black person A are largely identical to the problems of black person B (and of course that the primary cause of all their problems is racism)

I do not agree. Of course there is commonality and differences between groups and individuals. We need to understand the foundations of that. I think folks like you and I who are not experts should not be in the business of excluding options. That strikes me as rather presumptuous.

...obviously any program will have to deal with each person individually, and of course there will be large differences between whats needed in different regions and geographical areas, but i think creating special programs based on ethnicity is the wrong way to go

Well, I respect your opinion. God forbid when those are not allowed.

 

[Caper]

So, earlier you challenged me on my statement that the disparity was due to environmental factors. You gave the example that blacks tend to excel and that was apparently due to inherent factors.

You now agree with me that the disparity is cultural (environmental)?

In a sense yes. But there are genetic differences. We over simplify it all by just using skin color.

If you took 1000 African Americans... and 1000 Eskimo's raised them in the exact environment... and then after so many years took the 10 fastest. You would have 10 African American males. In that case it's genetic.

In Canada. There are problems with Native groups that are entirely genetic. You never seen drunk until you've seen a drunk Inuit. As a group they can't handle it. They didn't evolve with it and when present in some of their communities it can wreak havoc unlike any other group;. The problem is largely genetic. As is a lot of heath issues, that targets their communities more then others. Again. Those problems are genetic and put them as a group on an unequal playing field.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I do not agree. Of course there is commonality and differences between groups and individuals. We need to understand the foundations of that. I think folks like you and I who are not experts should not be in the business of excluding options. That strikes me as rather presumptuous.

i also agree things should never be entirely ruled out, but of course we are just having a discussion on an internet forum, not actually setting policy

 

[RandFan]

If you took 1000 African Americans... and 1000 Eskimo's raised them in the exact environment... and then after so many years took the 10 fastest. You would have 10 African American males. In that case it's genetic.

This is not supported by the theory of evolution. Not sure where you came up with it. What do you think caused the difference in allele frequency in the first place? God?

But you miss the salient point, the discussion is about factors that result in the apparent disparity between blacks and whites. You have not identified any genetic factors. Do you think they exist?

In Canada. There are problems with Native groups that are entirely genetic. You never seen drunk until you've seen a drunk Inuit. As a group they can't handle it. They didn't evolve with it and when present in some of their communities it can wreak havoc unlike any other group;. The problem is largely genetic. As is a lot of heath issues, that targets their communities more then others. Again. Those problems are genetic and put them as a group on an unequal playing field.

Let me ask you this question, prior to the introduction of Europeans how many maladapative Inuit and how many dysfunctional Inuit communities do you think there were? Do you think the Inuit are inherently unable to flourish in healthy communities?