Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[Daylightstar]

...

Then, one of the traveling clocks suddenly matches the zero velocity of the frame of reference, and now you want to know how the clock speed of the remaining traveling clock relates to the clock speed of the clock which now matches the zero-velocity of the frame of reference.
...

Bjarne, you haven't answered my question for clarification.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7197276&postcount=3852
I am especially looking for your (dis)confirmation for the above quoted bit.

 

[Reality Check]

RC Wrote;

I guess RC mean time is ticking slower at planet X relative to a clock at planet C
What do RC mean?
Is a clock seen from the perspective of C, ticking slower at planet X?
Or do RC mean; ticking faster ?

RC means what RC wrote: ticking slower.
The clocks always tick slower in special realtivity. No one ever sees a click ticking faster.
Time dilation

The formula for determining time dilation in special relativity is:

... and

is the Lorentz factor.

The Lorentz factor is a positive number (regardless of what an especially ignorant person thinks) that is always greater than 1.

I know that you are incapable of understanding simple math but here it is, Bjarne:
v is the relative speed between the observers. It has units of (length/time).
c is the speed of light. It has units of (length/time).
If you square v then you get v² then you get a positive number with units of (length/time)².
If you square c then you get c² then you get a positive number with units of (length/time)².
If you divide that v squared by c squared then you get a number with no units of measurement which is less than 1 because v is always less than c.
If you subtract that number from 1 then you get a positive number < 1 with no units of measurement.
If you take the square root of that number from 1 then you get a positive number < 1 with no units of measurement.
If you divide 1 by that number then you get a positive number >= 1 with no units of measurement.

The Lorentz factor is a positive number >= 1 with no units of measurement.

 

[Bjarne]

You propose three clocks, one clock which is part of the frame of reference (zero velocity) and two clocks traveling with matching relativistic velocities of 100,000 km/s, with respect to the frame of reference.
Here you want to know how the clock speeds of the traveling clocks relate to the clock speed of the clock in the frame of reference.

Then, one of the traveling clocks suddenly matches the zero velocity of the frame of reference, and now you want to know how the clock speed of the remaining traveling clock relates to the clock speed of the clock which now matches the zero-velocity of the frame of reference.

Is this what you meant to ask?

I have answered exactly what I am asking for here;
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7198267&postcount=3855

 

[Bjarne]

REFERENCE FRAME 1
Above you head you do have a spacecraft (above the North pole of the Earth) .
It looks like it was hanging a spacecraft in the air just above you head.
The speed of that object is zero relative to you. (we have ignored gravity of the Earth)
So planet C (the Earth) is in relative rest compared to the spacecraft.
( But relative to planet X it would be 100,000 km/s west, - but this is a different reference frame and hence a different story)
Now, - how is time ticking at the watch on board at the spacecraft relative to yours watch (you live at planet C).
(We ignore gravity and rotation influences of the Earth.)
Daylightstar wrote

The same of course.

Correct. Time at the spacecraft must relative to time at planet “C” be the same.


REFERENCE FRAME 2
Planet X moves east 100,000 km/s. - Just above the Earth's north pole a spacecraft (from planet X) is launched moving 100,000 km/s west relative to planet X.
How would the clock tick at planet X relative to the spacecraft.
RC Wrote

An observer on planets XZY would measure the captains watch ticking lower (time dilation).

Correct. Time at the spacecraft clock must relative to time at planet “X” be slower according to SR.


REFERENCE FRAME 3
How would the clock tick at planet “C” relative to a clock at planet “X”
RC Wrote;

Me living on planet C would measure time dilation for clocks on planets X.

Correct. Time at planet “X” clock must relative to time at planet “C” be slower according to SR.

But now we have a problem
Because Let us say;

RC live at planet C.
After one year his beard will reach to the floor.

Paul live at planet X
Relative to time on planet "C" time at planet "X" is ticking slower.
This mean Paul’s beard will only grow halfway to the floor after 1 year.

I am the captain at the spacecraft.
Paul will now claim that my beard must grow slower as his, because my clock must tick slower than his.
Witch mean my beard must after 1 year only will reach 25% to the floor.

But RC would now scream to heaven; that we are all crackpots, cranks’, liars, ignorant and completely idiots because seen from his reality my beard MUST also reach the floor so like his does. BASTA

So who is the stupid now ?

Paul or RC ?

 

[Reality Check]

But RC would now scream to heaven; that we are all crackpots, cranks’, liars, ignorant and completely idiots because seen from his reality my beard MUST also reach the floor so like his does. BASTA

So who is the stupid now ?

Paul or RC ?

But RC would now scream to heaven: all observers see time dilation. You cannot understand that basic bit of physics.

RC live at planet C.
After one year I measure my beard as reaching to the floor.

Paul live at planet X
After one year Paul measures his beard as reaching to the floor.
Relative to time on planet "C" time at planet "X" is ticking slower.
This mean when I (RC) measure it, Paul’s beard will only have grown halfway to the floor after 1 year of my time .

I am the captain at the spacecraft.
After one year you measure your beard as reaching to the floor.
Paul will now claim that your beard must grow slower as his, because your clock must tick slower and he measures that your beard after 1 year of his time only will reach 25% a certain amount (plug the numbers into the equations rather than guessing, Bjarne) to the floor.



Of course

• After one year of my time measured by my clock my beard reaches the floor.
• After one year of Pauls time measured by his clock kis beard reaches the floor.
• After one year of your time measured by your clock your beard reaches the floor.

It is the measurements by the other observers that differ because they see the other clocks running slower.

So who is the stupid now?

Bjarne?

 

[Bjarne]

After one year of my time measured by my clock my beard reaches the floor.
After one year of Pauls time measured by his clock kis beard reaches the floor.
After one year of your time measured by your clock your beard reaches the floor.

Completely crank crackpot ignorant stupid idiotic Irrelevant


NewZeland and you represent the control center

Every your day in one of your year Paul have reported to you how long our beard MUST have grown.

Exactly after 1 of your year, you will calculate it all together.

You must (after many many many years at the University) be able to understand that the beard-grow-sum according to your own reference frame do not fit with the sum of of the beard lenght of the spacecraft-captain, - what Paul have reported to you within one of your year. .

It is so stupid idiotic cow crackpot crank simple, - my beard cannot within the same your year, only reach 25% to the floor (which is the sum of Paul’s reporting) and also 100% to the floor (which is the sum of your own reporting / reference frame) (!)…..(§-?) ?

A self death cow concrete crank brain have discovered that simple math for more as 18 billion years ago.

So after 1 year of your year RC, - you SHOULD really scream to heaven, because you have been naïve enough not to take cow concrete brains intelligence serious enough. .

There MUST exist an absolute reference frame, It should not be necessary to mention, is is sooooo logic. It MUST exist.

But I am not sure whether that simple message can get through the concrete to you.

The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect
Aristotle

 

[Little 10 Toes]

I get it Bjarne, why can't you?

Completely crank crackpot ignorant stupid idiotic Irrelevant

Thank you for agreeing about your idea.

NewZeland and you represent the control center

It's New Zealand.

Every your day in one of your year Paul have reported to you how long our beard MUST have grown.

Why is Paul reporting on how long Reality Check's beard has grown? Can't he check his own beard? "Our beard?" Who owns "our beard"?

Exactly after 1 of your year, you will calculate it all together.

As previously stated, it takes approximately 31,536,000 seconds for a beard to touch the ground. However, if time passes differently in each location (Earth, Planet X, the rocket ship) based on your own frame, then what might be a year on one time frame might be +/- one year on another time frame.

You must (after many many many years at the University) be able to understand that the beard-grow-sum according to your own reference frame do not fit with the sum of of the beard lenght of the spacecraft-captain, - what Paul have reported to you within one of your year.

Reality Check is on the Earth, Paul is on Planet X, and Bjarne is on the rocket ship. So Reality Check calls Paul every day and asks for a measurement. At the end of one Earth year, Reality Check's beard reaches the floor, but Paul's doesn't. (You agree to this on post #3864)

It is so stupid idiotic cow crackpot crank simple, - my beard cannot within the same your year, only reach 25% to the floor (which is the sum of Paul’s reporting) and also 100% to the floor (which is the sum of your own reporting / reference frame) (!)…..(§-?) ?

Here's where you error. In post #3864 you agree that rocketship clock slower than Planet X slower than Earth. ("Time at the spacecraft clock must relative to time at planet “X” be slower according to SR.") and ("Time at planet “X” clock must relative to time at planet “C” be slower according to SR.) Please note, the rocketship in the first quote has been launched, it is not stationary over the Earth/Planet C. On the Earth after one Earth year, Reality Check will have a floor beard, Paul's Planet X beard will be halfway to the floor, and Bjarne's rocketship beard will just begin to show. No I don't know the correct math, I'm just making some figures up. If Paul looks at his Planet X clock, he will notice a year has not passed while Bjarne looks at his rocketship clock, he will notice he's still in the same season as he left.

A self death cow concrete crank brain have discovered that simple math for more as 18 billion years ago.

But you can't?

There MUST exist an absolute reference frame, It should not be necessary to mention, is is sooooo logic. It MUST exist.

But I am not sure whether that simple message can get through the concrete to you.

No, an absolute reference frame doesn't have to exist. Perhaps you missed the R in SR?

If I need to correct something, someone other than Bjarne will let me know.

 

[Daylightstar]

I have answered exactly what I am asking for here;
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7198267&postcount=3855

Not so much, but it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Bjarne]

Why is Paul reporting on how long Reality Check's beard has grown?

He don't
He is reporting how long his own is and how long he expect the captains beard (my beard) have grown in 1 RC year.

Reality Check is on the Earth, Paul is on Planet X, and Bjarne is on the rocket ship. So Reality Check calls Paul every day and asks for a measurement. At the end of one Earth year, Reality Check's beard reaches the floor, but Paul's doesn't. (You agree to this on post #3864)

Yes so far everyone agree.

In post #3864 you agree that rocketship clock slower than Planet X slower than Earth. ("Time at the spacecraft clock must relative to time at planet “X” be slower according to SR.") and ("Time at planet “X” clock must relative to time at planet “C” be slower according to SR.)

Yes I believe everyone agree..

Please note, the rocketship in the first quote has been launched, it is not stationary over the Earth/Planet C.

Ohh yes it is, so this is where the chain went of for you.
Tell me one reason to that it not would be stationary above you head (ignore that gravity can pull it down)

On the Earth after one Earth year, Reality Check will have a floor beard.

yes.

Paul's Planet X beard will be halfway to the floor

Yes

and Bjarne ‘s rocket ship beard will just begin to show.

Yes let's just say 25%

No I don't know the correct math, I'm just making some figures up.
If Paul looks at his Planet X clock, he will notice a year has not passed

It depends of his orbit etc, (forget it this is irrelevant)
Only 1 RC year counts.

while Bjarne looks at his rocket ship clock, he will notice he's still in the same season as he left.

Again forget season’s year etc in my reference frame.
The question is only how much beard would RC see if Paul and I every year would send him a photo?
Would that fit with his idea of special reality, because RC MUST believe I MUST have the same length beard as him.

I believe the solution to the problem soon will be that RC will accuse me for having cheated and cut my beard, and accuse Paul for having converted to and conspirator idiotic ignorant crank, and now is telling RC lies.
Because RC CANNOT be wrong this is total idiotic ignorant IMPOSSIBLE

The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect
Aristotle

 

[Daylightstar]

...
Of course

• After one year of my time measured by my clock my beard reaches the floor.
• After one year of Pauls time measured by his clock kis beard reaches the floor.
• After one year of your time measured by your clock your beard reaches the floor.

It is the measurements by the other observers that differ because they see the other clocks running slower.
...?

To which you, Bjarne, replied:

Completely crank crackpot ignorant stupid idiotic Irrelevant
...

Although you quoted RC's text, which correctly and clearly states relative to which clocks the beard length measurements are valid, you still fail to understand what's happening.

 

[Daylightstar]

... because RC MUST believe I MUST have the same length beard as him.
...

He doesn't. He says that you, after one year on your clock, you will observe to have a beard reaching the floor.

...

• After one year of your time measured by your clock your beard reaches the floor.

...

See?

 

[Bjarne]

He doesn't. He says that you, after one year on your clock, you will observe to have a beard reaching the floor.

See?

The question is NOT how long "my time" it take to get a beard reaching the floor.

The question is ONLY how long will my beard grow in one RC year seen from RC's reference frame.?
And would Paul agree after 1 RC year, seen from Pauls reference frame. ?

The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect
Aristotle

 

[Daylightstar]

The question is NOT how long "my time" it take to get a beard reaching the floor.

The question is ONLY how long will my beard grow in one RC year seen from RC's reference frame.?
And would Paul agree after 1 RC year, seen from Pauls reference frame. ?

The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect
Aristotle

Paul's (X) and Reality Check's (C) observations would not be the same.

As for as how long your beard will have grown, as seen from Reality Check's frame of reference, you may utilize the time dilation formula which Reality Check provided above.
You already have all the data to do this.

Edit:
Ugh, the result would be 1.
You and Reality Check observe no time dilation for each other.
For other combinations of observers it would be different.

All your adding different identifiers is soooo ugly.

 

[Bjarne]

Paul's (X) and Reality Check's (C) observations would not be the same.

Of course these observation cannot be the same, and therefore the captains (my) beard is both reaching the floor and only 25% reaching the floor at the same time.
This is the result you get when using the dilation formula which Reality Check provided above.

As for as how long your beard will have grown, as seen from Reality Check's frame of reference, you may utilize the time dilation formula which Reality Check provided above.

There is nothing to calculate for RC relative to the spacecraft, - because the captain’s motion is zero relative to the motion of RC.

 

[phunk]

Of course these observation cannot be the same, and therefore the captains (my) beard is both reaching the floor and only 25% reaching the floor at the same time.
This is the result you get when using the dilation formula which Reality Check provided above.

No, that is the result of using the formula incorrectly and not having any idea what you're talking about.

 

[Little 10 Toes]

The question is NOT how long "my time" it take to get a beard reaching the floor.

The question is ONLY how long will my beard grow in one RC year seen from RC's reference frame.?
And would Paul agree after 1 RC year, seen from Pauls reference frame. ?

Really? It is the ONLY question? It's the newest question. Let's see what you have asked before this "Only" question:

How would time tick at the captains watch, - relative to the time at planet XZY
Slower or faster ?

Now...
How would time tick at the captains watch (at the spacecraft) , - relative to the time at the planets ZXY .
Slower or faster ?

Towards west you have launched a spacecraft moving 100,000 km/s
How is time ticking on board of the spacecraft watch, relative to a wacth at planet X?

From my basic understanding, in order to answer the beard length question, you need to tell us how fast the Earth is moving. You have told us that Planet X is moving 100,000 km/s. You have mentioned that a rocket ship is moving in the opposite direction of Planet X at 100,000 km/s. A simple diagram is R <----- # ---> E -----> X where R is the rocket ship, E is the Earth, X is Planet X, # is the point in space when Planet X was directly overhead the Earth and launched the rocket ship, and the greater than / less than signs are used as arrows to show direction of movement.

Ohh yes it is, so this is where the chain went of for you.
Tell me one reason to that it not would be stationary above you head (ignore that gravity can pull it down)

Ok. You defined it.

In your "set up" for the problems you gave us. Originally there was a planet with a rocket ship directly overhead, but not moving. You then introduced a planet that was launching a rocket ship when the planet was directly overhead. The rocket ship was moving away from Planet X.

 

[Daylightstar]

...
There is nothing to calculate for RC relative to the spacecraft, - because the captain’s motion is zero relative to the motion of RC.

Which is what I said as well.

 

[Reality Check]

Completely crank crackpot ignorant stupid idiotic ...total gibberish rant smipped...
The same attribute cannot at the same time belong and not belong to the same subject and in the same respect
Aristotle

Now you idiotically quote Aristotle when discusing the theorry of relativity!

 

[Reality Check]

Reality Check is on the Earth, Paul is on Planet X, and Bjarne is on the rocket ship. So Reality Check calls Paul every day and asks for a measurement. At the end of one Earth year, Reality Check's beard reaches the floor, but Paul's doesn't. (You agree to this on post #3864)
...
If I need to correct something, someone other than Bjarne will let me know.

You need to specifiy whose clock is measuring the year.
At the end of on year according to my clock my beard reaches the floor.
But Paul will report that his beard reached the floor after more than a year by my clock.

But from what I have seen the situation is:
I am on a planet and consider to be the reference observer.
Paul is on a planet X travelling at a speed of v (100,000 km/s) from my planet.
Bjarne is on a spaceship with travelling at a speed of 2v (200,000 km/s) relative to me in the opposite direction to Paul.

As noted before: I will measure Paul and Bjarne's clocks to tick slower because they both have relative velocities to me.

But it loks like Bjarne has sated that he is actually at rest realtive to me. This makes it even simpler: No time dilation for him.

 

[Daylightstar]

...with a speed of 100,000 km/s...

... 25% ...
This is the result you get when using the dilation formula which Reality Check provided above.
...

This is just silly Bjarne.
It shows not only that you are ...uuhhm let's say... not very knowledgeable about relativity, but also that you do not even understand the time dilation curve, else you would not have even guessed 25% on a V=100,000 km/s velocity.