Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[MRC_Hans]

It is a simple fact that the measured ADG is about 25µGal/m faster (at the lower floors) as it would have been while without the building.

The gravimeter doesn’t tell any lies. You simple get the opposite result at the lower floors as you should expect. This is a problem.

OK, moment of truth: Bjarne, you keep claiming this. So what would the gravimeter read without the building?

Since you claim that the reading is higher with the building, you must be able to answer this question.

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?

Answer this and we may continue.

ETA: Explain how you get the value.

Hans

 

[Marcus]

No ADG is about 25µGal faster per floor at the lower floors

Suppose the Domus Vista was pre-fabricated, and delivered by a giant helicopter. Now, you sit with your gravimeter on the empty foundation and you measure the gravity (let us say the basement is built there, so you sit where the first floor is going to be). You will measure something like 981550.959mGal. This is the baseline gravity (I can explain how I calculate this value, but let's save that for later).

Now the giant helicopter comes and lowers the building to the foundation, over and around you. When the dust has settled, you read your gravimeter again. Now it reads 981547.684mGal. This is 0.390mgal less than before they placed the building over you. Because the building pulls upwards a little.

Couldn't you at least read the posts?

 

[Bjarne]

OK, moment of truth: Bjarne, you keep claiming this. So what would the gravimeter read without the building?

Since you claim that the reading is higher with the building, you must be able to answer this question.

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?
Answer this and we may continue.

ETA: Explain how you get the value.

Hans

It clearly seems that the COG must be right under the concrete foundation
In the meeting point between the Earth and the building
The downwards pulls seem to continue to that downwards direction.
This mean at that spot / COG there are no difference with or without a building…

If this is true it is off course a big surprise.
Still it supports that new theory that in its simplicity claims that gravity is a result of encircling a central point of space. The mass of the Earth could participate in such process.
This mean you must be able to measure the effect deep inside the Earth too (counterbalance) .

We can extend the next measurement with a ground zero measurement inside the mass. I consider doing this.

So the answer is at ground zero (cellar / foundation) ADG difference = zero.

COG is here and hence zero difference.

In this case ADG must be double so strong, because the direction from where space is "fetched" is reduced, we have discussed that before..

 

[steenkh]

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?

It clearly seems that the COG must be right under the concrete foundation

When asked a direct question, Bjarne acts like a coward and avoids answering but starts a new discussion

 

[MRC_Hans]

It clearly seems that the COG must be right under the concrete foundation
In the meeting point between the Earth and the building
The downwards pulls seem to continue to that downwards direction.
This mean at that spot / COG there are no difference with or without a building…
http://www.science27.com/forum/funda.jpg

If this is true it is off course a big surprise.

Not only that, it is a totally absurd idea.

And for the measurements, it doesn't make a difference: The part of the building you have measured has a COG.

But you didn't answer the question:

Since you claim that the reading is higher with the building, you must be able to answer this question.

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?

Answer this and we may continue.

Explain how you get the value.

Hans

 

[Paul]

No ADG is about 25µGal faster per floor at the lower floors

blap blap blap you're still wrong.

 

[Paul]

It clearly seems that the COG must be right under the concrete foundation

It clearly seems that you are wilfully ignorant about the centre of gravity.

The downwards pulls seem to continue to that downwards direction.

Earth big, lots of mass. Building, not so much.

This mean at that spot / COG there are no difference with or without a building…

Ahh, the Domus Vista has no mass approach.

Which of course is different to the aarrghh no más, no más, por favor approach.

If this is true it is off course a big surprise.

It certainly would be, if you hadn't just made it up.

Still it supports that new theory that in its simplicity claims that gravity is a result of encircling a central point of space.

It's not true so it supports nothing and furthermore, you don't have a theory.

...(counterbalance)... ...ground zero measurement...

What in the name of Great Sagan are you on about?

COG is here and hence zero difference.

Not even wrong.

In this case ADG must be double so strong, because the direction from where space is "fetched" is reduced, we have discussed that before..

The fact is you've measured the ADG and it isn't. You are wrong. Your own data prove you wrong.

 

[Bjarne]

When asked a direct question, Bjarne acts like a coward and avoids answering but starts a new discussion

I wrote; "So the answer is at ground zero (cellar / foundation) ADG difference = zero"
This is enough for understanding the logic ADG pattern with and without the building

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6841370&postcount=2883

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

This make no sense [...]

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

 

[Reality Check]

We can extend the next measurement with a ground zero measurement inside the mass. I consider doing this.

So the answer is at ground zero (cellar / foundation) ADG difference = zero.

It may be your ignorance of English but this seems rather inane.

You may be saying that the ADG at "ground zero" subtracted from the ADG at "ground zero" is zero. That is trivially true.

You may be saying that the ADG at "ground zero" subtracted from the ADG at "ground zero" within the mass is zero. That is trivially false because

1. you have not done the measurement and
2. moving within the mass will plas more mass above the ionstrument and change the measured ADG.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I wrote; "So the answer is at ground zero (cellar / foundation) ADG difference = zero"
This is enough for understanding the logic ADG pattern with and without the building

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6841370&postcount=2883

To make a statement about the difference between the measued adg in the building and what it would be without the building, you must know the ADG without the building, so enlighten us:

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?

Answer this and we may continue.

Explain how you get the value.


Bjarne, answer this question or flee, because I'm not letting you ignore it.

And just so you have no illusions: I have the answer.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

It may be your ignorance of English but this seems rather inane.
You may be saying that the ADG at "ground zero" subtracted from the ADG at "ground zero" is zero. That is trivially true.
You may be saying that the ADG at "ground zero" subtracted from the ADG at "ground zero" within the mass is zero. That is trivially false because

What I am saying is that;

I guess we all believe the COG must be somewhere.

We probably all agree that there is really no upwards pull in that building

Paul is right, - if a big Jupiter that would pass by close to the earth and let's say exert a pull on the Earth of 100µGal , - that would cause the gravimeter (at a 1 meter table), to measure a relative difference (between the Ground Floor and the table) of Minus 308 µGal + Minus 100µGal = Minus 408 µGal ( not only minus 208 µGal as I wrote yesterday).
This demonstrate a principle that also should apply for the lower parts of the building Domus Vista. - But it doesn’t.

The reason is that the COG must relocate when the building is standing on the Earth, - we have discussed that before.
It is a question of unification between 2 bodies, and what then happens inside the bodies.

The COG cannot be at Ground Floor or any of the other floors, because if so it should be revealed by upwards pull, exactly like the visiting Jupiter planet passing close by the Earth.

So where can the COG possible be?
Upwards or downwards pull must show us the direction where to find it.
Every floor in Domus Vista seems to point to the cellar / foundation.
There are no other possibilities.

Regarding the question exactly what is the value in the COG ?
Well it is a little hypnotic. The COG is most likely somewhere near the foundation under the cellar.
I am too lazy to consider what the ADG-value possible could be.
But if it is X without the building, that place, it is also X after the building is finish...Otherwise it would not be a COG.
This should answer the question..

The ADG values on different floors, depend of the excact mass / FAG..

1. you have not done the measurement and
2. moving within the mass will plas more mass above the ionstrument and change the measured ADG.

There will always be some deviation when measuring.
But let us say we expect a upwards pull of 200µGal and we only measure zero +/-20 µGal, - I think this is acceptable to get rid of the old thesis.
Later more exact measurement certainly can confirm this.

If the COG really is hiding beneath the cellar I think the FAG is about 306µGal beyond that building.

The reason to that the 3 lower floors shows much stronger ADG, is probably not only that these are heavier, but also the shorter distance to the COG beneath the cellar.

I can see no other possible pattern like that.

And yes I think we all (sooner or later) are surprised. (Except Mother Cow of course)...

 

[Reality Check]

What I am saying is that;

1.) I guess we all believe the COG must be somewhere.
...snipped ignorance of what teh COG is...

By defintion the COG of the buidling exists.
By defintion the COG of the building + Earth exists.

The COG of the building is somewhere near the center of the building, maybe a bit below the 15th floor. If half the mass of the building is below the third floor and half the mass of the building is above the third floor then the COG of the building is on the third floor. But that is unlikely.

The COG of the building + Earth is somewhere near the center of the Earth since the Earth is heavier than the building by a little tiny bit .

So what is your point?

 

[Bjarne]

By defintion the COG of the buidling exists.
By defintion the COG of the building + Earth exists.

The COG of the building is somewhere near the center of the building, maybe a bit below the 15th floor. If half the mass of the building is below the third floor and half the mass of the building is above the third floor then the COG of the building is on the third floor. But that is unlikely.

The COG of the building + Earth is somewhere near the center of the Earth since the Earth is heavier than the building by a little tiny bit .

So what is your point?

That there are no upwards pull in that building. Only downwards pull.
If you belive different, show me where is the upwards pull.

 

[Bjarne]

To make a statement about the difference between the measued adg in the building and what it would be without the building, you must know the ADG without the building, so enlighten us:

The gravimeter reading on the ground floor is 981547.684mGal.
The gravimeter reading in the same place without the building is:________mGal?

Answer this and we may continue.

Explain how you get the value.


Bjarne, answer this question or flee, because I'm not letting you ignore it.

And just so you have no illusions: I have the answer.

Hans

Let us say we will make a ground zero ADG measurement exactly at ground zero when making the next container . ( I think we shall do it)…
I expect ADG to be the same on that spot when the container is full and empty.
Come and join us.
There are always an extra shovel..
At the same time you can check elevation etc...

 

[Reality Check]

That there are no upwards pull in that building. Only downwards pull.
If you belive different, show me where is the upwards pull.

I said nothing about the pull, upwards or otherwise in that building. Do not make up stuff about what I write.

There is a pull towards the COG of the building. Below the COG it will be upwards. Above the COG it will be downwards.

 

[Paul]

I guess we all believe the COG must be somewhere.

Belief doesn't come into it.

We probably all agree that there is really no upwards pull in that building

I think everyone but you disagrees.

This demonstrate a principle that also should apply for the lower parts of the building Domus Vista. - But it doesn’t.

Tedious repetition does not improve the quality of your argument.

You are incorrect. You are amiss, awry, counterfactual, erroneous, fallacious, false, faulty, in error, inaccurate, inexact, miscalculated, misconstrued, misfigured, misguided, mishandled, mistaken, not precise, not right, off-target, on the wrong track, sophistical, specious, spurious, ungrounded, unsatisfactory, unsound, unsubstantial, untrue, and very, very wide of the mark.

The reason is that the COG must relocate when the building is standing on the Earth, - we have discussed that before.

You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

It is a question of unification between 2 bodies, and what then happens inside the bodies

That's complete nonsense and you should know it.

The COG cannot be at Ground Floor or any of the other floors, because if so it should be revealed by upwards pull,

As it is in the data you assiduously ignore.

Upwards or downwards pull must show us the direction where to find it.

Do you mean like this:

Every floor in Domus Vista seems to point to the cellar / foundation.

Except for all of them, which don't.

There are no other possibilities.

Except for the ones that there are.

Regarding the question exactly what is the value in the COG ?

Well it is a little hypnotic.

I really hope that a lot of this nonsense is because you are rushing and english is not your first language.

The COG is most likely somewhere near the foundation under the cellar.

Any reasons for this wild and spectacularly wrong guess?

I am too lazy to consider what the ADG-value possible could be.

Then you have no business anywhere near a gravity measurement.

But if it is X without the building, that place, it is also X after the building is finish...Otherwise it would not be a COG.

There is your answer to why the COG is not in the basement.

But let us say we expect a upwards pull of 200µGal and we only measure zero +/-20 µGal, - I think this is acceptable to get rid of the old thesis.

Why do you constantly insist on stupid speculation and sensationally supercilious statements?

Later more exact measurement certainly can confirm this.

You think you can afford more precise measurements?

If the COG really is hiding beneath the cellar I think the FAG is about 306µGal beyond that building.

OK, that explains everything, we've got a shy COG and it's hiding in the cellar. Perhaps we could coax it out with tuna.

And yes I think we all (sooner or later) are surprised. (Except Mother Cow of course)...

I imagine mother cow will be very surprised the day someone puts a bolt through her tiny, stupid cow brain.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I am too lazy to consider what the ADG-value possible could be.

The sign of a true scientist.

 

[Marcus]

Now the giant helicopter comes and lowers the building to the foundation, over and around you. When the dust has settled, you read your gravimeter again. Now it reads 981547.684mGal. This is 0.390mgal less than before they placed the building over you. Because the building pulls upwards a little.

We probably all agree that there is really no upwards pull in that building

I know, I'm just a stupid lurker, but I just don't understand why you don't get this. The building pulls upward, the ADG is less on the ground floor than if the building was not there.

 

[Bjarne]

I know, I'm just a stupid lurker, but I just don't understand why you don't get this. The building pulls upward, the ADG is less on the ground floor than if the building was not there.

You'll first know when comparing that Ground floor value to relative measurement on a different floor further up.

There is a pull towards the COG of the building. Below the COG it will be upwards. Above the COG it will be downwards.

By comparing measurement values on different floors, - you can easy determinate; there are no upwards pull and hence no COG at any of the floors at that building. .

Or in other words; doesn’t matter from which of the lower floor you drop a stone, - the stone will from all of these floors begin to accelerate faster as it would without the building.

Imaging you would remove the building and drop an apple from a latter (1 meter up).
The apple would now begin to accelerate about 9.81 m/s - minus the FAG (which mean let’s just say minus 308µGal/m)
Let us say the COG really is at 10 th floor,- (35 meter up) and that the total ADG in the bottom was minus -/+300µGal.
Now you would expect the negative total of Minus 300µGal to decrease to zero on the 35 meter upwards.
You can calculate the expected (average) decrease as ; -300 µGal/35meter = Minus 8,5 µGal per meter.

This means;
You would expect an total ADG decrease per meter as following;

• 9.81 m/s Minus the FAG (308 µGal/m)
• Minus the building upwards pull (8,5 µGal/m) .

You hence can understand that you should expect an upwards decrease of the ADG of the Earth of a total :

Minus 308 µGal/m + Minus 8,5 µGal/m = Minus 316,5 µGal/m per meter.

Or in other words you would expect a stone to fall total Minus 316,5 µGal slower per meter

Minus 308µGal/m slower due to the Earth natural lost of gravity (FAG), and
Minus 8,5 µGal/m due to the building’s upwards pull towards the COG..

Therefore you would expect a stone to fall slower on the entire lower floors, - at that building.


BUT what we see it the total opposite.

We do in fact see a faster ADG (relative to the FAG), about +25 µGal faster per meter on on the 3 lower floors and few µGal/m faster on all the other lower floors. ( This mean the total "lost" of ADG per meter is only about Minus 280µGal/m on the 3 lower flors.

Therefore you can easy conclude; there are no upwards pull in that building.

And therefore you can also conclude; there is no COG on any of the floors.

A stone is simply falling faster as it “should”.

This mean the prevailing thesis has fallen.

There is no support at all, - at any spot in that building, - which possible can wake the old thesis back to lie.