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Bitcoin - Part 2

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The_Animus said:
Isn't that the case with all fiat currency? After all a dollar has no intrinsic value. By that logic you should be a gold/silver bug.
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The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, which has both taxing power and big ol' printing presses; it has the means to make good on its obligations. Bitcoin, as a wag noted in the old thread, is backed by the full faith and credit of the international drug trade. There is no taxing power behind it, and it is inherently deflationary (or it would be if people were using it to any great extent).

I'll keep my USD, thanks very much.
 
jhunter1163 said:
The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, which has both taxing power and big ol' printing presses; it has the means to make good on its obligations. Bitcoin, as a wag noted in the old thread, is backed by the full faith and credit of the international drug trade. There is no taxing power behind it, and it is inherently deflationary (or it would be if people were using it to any great extent).

I'll keep my USD, thanks very much.
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That was some great goal post moving. You said intrinsic value, which it does not have.

Don't have enough time left in my break to address this properly. Maybe someone else will.
 
Belz... said:
The odds of the value of a fiat currency going to zero is pretty small, don't you think ?
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In the short term definitely. Historically, no. Further the value of several currencies have fluctuated wildly over time similar to bitcoin.

jhunter tried framing bitcoin as having the fault of no intrinsic value, which is why silver is better than bitcoin. I merely pointed out that by that logic gold/silver is also better than any fiat currency because all fiat currency has no intrinsic value. Then goalposts were moved to avoid addressing that.

All I want is for jhunter to admit that they moved the goalposts in order to avoid conceding the point that bitcoin having no intrinsic value is not a fault and is totally irrelevant. Then if jhunter wants to switch to discussing the role faith and acceptance plays in making a currency with no intrinsic value valuable, that's fine.
 
The_Animus said:
All I want is for jhunter to admit that they moved the goalposts in order to avoid conceding the point that bitcoin having no intrinsic value is not a fault and is totally irrelevant. Then if jhunter wants to switch to discussing the role faith and acceptance plays in making a currency with no intrinsic value valuable, that's fine.
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But bitcoin having no intrinsic value is a fault, and is entirely relevant. If its value goes to zero, its holders have no recourse whatsoever. In the extremely unlikely event that the USD goes to zero, I can still use those bills as toilet paper, or burn them for warmth, even leaving aside the faith and acceptance issues.

You and the other bitbugs continually try to twist my words and play silly semantic games in order to avoid discussing the serious problems with BTC, such as its 75% drop in value from the peak and the ongoing issue of theft.

BTC clearly is not ready for prime time. Its flaws are not beyond repair but as presently constructed it is a poor choice both as an investment and as a "currency".
 
jhunter1163 said:
But bitcoin having no intrinsic value is a fault, and is entirely relevant. If its value goes to zero, its holders have no recourse whatsoever. In the extremely unlikely event that the USD goes to zero, I can still use those bills as toilet paper, or burn them for warmth, even leaving aside the faith and acceptance issues.
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The USD has "intrinsic" value because you can wipe your arse with it? That's even sillier than saying that silver has "intrinsic" value because it is shiny. (As a matter of fact, most USDs aren't even printed - they are just numbers in a bank account. So you can't even do that with them).

There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value. Something is valuable only if people believe it is valuable. That something might have uses other than as a medium of exchange doesn't give it this fictitious "intrinsic value".
 
psionl0 said:
The USD has "intrinsic" value because you can wipe your arse with it? That's even sillier than saying that silver has "intrinsic" value because it is shiny. (As a matter of fact, most USDs aren't even printed - they are just numbers in a bank account. So you can't even do that with them).

There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value. Something is valuable only if people believe it is valuable. That something might have uses other than as a medium of exchange doesn't give it this fictitious "intrinsic value".
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We can dispense with this silliness right now. You and I both know the USD isn't going anywhere. It's the world's reserve currency, and it's going to stay that way. We here in the US like it that way, we intend to keep it that way, and our policymakers will do whatever is necessary to ensure that it stays that way. Now stop trying to dodge the issues of BTC's problems and meet them head-on.
 
OK, I concede the problems you have raised with Bitcoin:
  • It will never be the world's reserve currency.
  • It isn't shiny.
  • You can't use it as toilet paper.
Happy?
 
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psionl0 said:
OK, I concede the problems you have raised with Bitcoin:
  • It will never be the world's reserve currency.
  • It isn't shiny.
  • You can't use it as toilet paper.
Happy?
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You're getting there. Now if you could just address the problem of BTC losing three-quarters of its value in the last year, and the problem of one-eighth of all BTC ever mined being stolen, we'd really be going places.
 
There's no need. I have already discussed those issues ad-nauseum.

Isn't that why you keep making up silly stuff now?
 
Belz... said:
Come on, let's play nice, now. It's not as if this is a religious issue... is it ?
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Sometimes I wonder.

You could make some arguably true statements against bitcoin like:
  • Bitcoin is not especially useful as a currency. or
  • Bitcoin is not especially useful as a store of value.
Unfortunately, many of the anti-bitcoin zealots are not content to leave it at that.

According to some, it is a giant conspiracy concocted between the Illuminati and psychic computer programmers to fleece gullible old grandmothers out of their life savings. What we see today was all planned in minute detail years ago before the first line of code for bitcoin was ever written.

Others put their Jedi mind powers to work and predict with the certainty of an angelic prophet that bitcoin will suddenly disappear without a trace (also leaving the grandmothers out of pocket).

And just when you think the arguments against bitcoin couldn't get any sillier .................

AFAIK this is still a skeptics forum and I reserve the right to dismiss "out of this world" arguments entirely.
 
psionl0 said:
According to some, it is a giant conspiracy concocted between the Illuminati and psychic computer programmers to fleece gullible old grandmothers out of their life savings.
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That seemed very likely early on, but now I think it's very unlikely, as something would have crashed the market when it peaked.
 
Belz... said:
You're not usually like this, jhunter. How is that a reasonable answer to my request for civility ?
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You know, you're absolutely right. I should know better, being a moderator and all. I apologize for my tone.

You could make some arguably true statements against bitcoin like:
Bitcoin is not especially useful as a currency. or
Bitcoin is not especially useful as a store of value.
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To my mind, the bolded are inarguably true. BTC is extremely limited in its utility as a "currency", the recent developments with eBay and Dell notwithstanding, and any purported "store of value" where the value stored can decline 30% in the space of a couple of weeks is not especially useful, to put it mildly.
 
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