Belz...
Fiend God
It has a value like any currency. Unfortunately that value can fluctuate wildly, and it seems that for high amounts it's hard to convert BTC to USD; tippit's claim nonwithstanding.
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My point would be that if I as a person recognize that it stores no value, and that I would only use it for a temporary method of purchase (ie, buy a bitcoin in the morning, use it for a bitcoin purchase, and convert rest back to dollars), who would sell me that bitcoin in exchange for dollars? Who would keep a store of bitcoins (like a bank) for me to use when the value of the coin fluctuates so much?
I don't know if there is a business model that can operate for long term if their assets fluctuate as rapidly as the bit coin price.
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
There are only two ways to get BTC; mine them or buy them. Mining is quite expensive in terms of hardware and electricity and only people with high-end computer setups are doing it any more, pretty much; to buy BTC, you have to either know someone who has some or go through an exchange.
So, in our hypothetical, you buy, say, 10 BTC at the now-current rate of around $340 per through an exchange. You now have $3,400 worth of BTC; you cheerfully head off to eBay to go buy that jetski you saw there.
But when you go to check out, you're told you only have $3,000 worth of BTC because the value of a BTC has dropped to $300 since you made your purchase. (To be fair, that much of a drop that quickly might be an exaggeration, but not much of one.)
Again, to be entirely fair, there are positive swings of value for BTC, but the volatility of the price makes any kind of ordinary day-to-day usage extremely problematic. You simply don't know, when you go to sleep, if you'll have enough to buy your jetski when you wake up.
The_Animus
Illuminator
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That's a great argument. I'm totally convinced and concede the point. However it seems then that toilet paper is by far the superior choice. You can wipe your behind much better, burn it for fire, attach to a stick as a torch, use it as a napkin, even write on it like a scroll. Seriously though stop making such blatantly ridiculous arguments.
Not a bitbug, which btw is intended as ad hom name calling. You don't even understand my position. It's explained in either this thread or the other one assuming you actually care to be accurate.
Not exactly what I believe but pretty close. Perhaps it should be left at that.
Belz...
Fiend God
It would be nice if you actually pointed out why it's ridiculous, though.
The_Animus
Illuminator
- Joined
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- 3,588
Already did. Twice. So did Psion. What part about dollars being better than bitcoin because they can be used to wipe your butt is not blatantly ridiculous?
Belz...
Fiend God
What's obvious is that jhunter was using hyperbole to illustrate that actual dollars have value that BTC do not, namely that as a physical thing they can be used for a number of things.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Obviously! You would have everybody believe that bitcoin prices will never rise again and that there will never be any satisfactory ways to spend or exchange bitcoins.
The problem is that you are not a fortune teller.
Anybody who was not acting out of sheer blind prejudice would have observed some inverse relationship between bitcoin prices and news about the state of the economy. While the PIIGS and Cyprus were in the news daily, the price of bitcoin soared. With news about Europe on the economic front relatively scarce and the US economy having improved somewhat, fewer people are turning to bitcoin and this shows in the price.
As far as spending bitcoins are concerned, you should monitor the progress of the Ripple system. https://wiki.ripple.com/Main_Page
Under this system, a payer can send payment in one currency and the payee receive it in another currency (or even commodities like gold) and the network does the necessary conversions. Ripple Labs claims to have to have signed its first two U.S. banks to use the Ripple protocol for real-time, cross-border payments. (https://ripple.com/blog/ripple-labs-signs-first-two-us-banks/) If this system continues to expand, it could revolutionize the banking system altogether.
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psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
I can't believe that you would endorse such a desperate overreach.
Just to put this silly nonsense to rest, currency notes make for very lousy toilet paper - especially the plastic variety that are used in Australia and other parts of the world. I wouldn't be burning them in the fireplace either since I don't know what noxious fumes would be produced.
If hyperinflation or some other problem rendered currency notes worthless, they would have no use whatsoever. Rather, disposing of the old notes would be the problem.
Only when it's tanking.
Belz...
Fiend God
I didn't "endorse" it. I'm trying to put it into perspective. Just because I understand his argument doesn't mean I agree with or support it.
Belz...
Fiend God
That's a lie. I've been mentioning the price going back up several times. But you must be blinded by the piles of cash you made with BTC so you don't see it.
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
It is not possible to put sheer nonsense into any sort of perspective.
jhunter1163
beer-swilling semiliterate
So what is the intrinsic value of a Bitcoin?
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
Belz...
Fiend God
Have you considered that perhaps the reason why you think it's sheer nonsense is because you've failed to put it into perspective ?
The intrinsic value of bitcoin, is nil. The extrinsic value stems from the fact that some people (not me personally) are willing to voluntarily accept it in exchange for money or goods and services. The fact that this de-centralized electronic "ledger system" works over the internet and great distances coupled with the fact that people are voluntarily willing to accept it makes it unique. At the very least, one is able to transfer funds into and out of oppressive political regimes in ways that are unprecedented before ever in human history. Of course, you have to expose yourself to some of the risk of holding such a digital "asset", but it still obviously has extrinsic value to some.
I do not agree with psion's assessment that the concept of intrinsic value is "fictitious". The intrinsic value of the USD while not nil, is essentially next-to-nil. Of course like bitcoin it also has extrinsic value, but for reasons related to military violence and the threat of such violence, the force of legal tender law, and conventional acceptance as a result of these two forces.
Belz...
Fiend God
Well if you think about it, gold has no intrinsic value, either. Nothing does unless you give it one.
That's ridiculous, as clearly there are things which either all, or virtually all people believe are valuable in and of themselves, not necessarily for what they represent or are symbolic of. Even if one of these things is not particularly valuable to you, as long as it has value to most others, you will find it valuable as well. The subset of these things which are not symbolic tokens can be said to have "intrinsic" value.
To discount this concept in favor of some absolute nihilistic concept of everything having subjective value isn't very useful when describing the real world.
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