Bin Laden Dead Truthers Mourn

[Unsecured Coins]

No, we are not at war with Pakistan. It was their neighborhood, not a combat zone. Bin Laden was a fugitive of the U.S. Justice Department as a suspect for crimes.

Bin Laden and a woman... A HARMLESS WOMAN HALF HIS SIZE... were UNARMED. Navy SEALs with body armor shot them in a manner perceived by many, especially in that part of the world, as cowardly and inexcusable.

SEALS are supposed to be the "best of the best". Either he was a trigger happy, easily frightened, soldier (doubtful). Or (likely) he was brave but under orders to shoot Bin Laden even if unarmed. If he was even braver, he should have refused such an immoral order.

It was a poorly defined mission, and brought shame to America, when it could have brought honor. Intelligence about the number of guards (few) was lacking. Live capture should have been the #1 emphasis. This lynching hurt our reputation as a righteous nation of laws. It endangers Americans to Blow Back for years to come. How can we tell other countries "be a democracy like us"?

SEAL Team Six needs training in making live arrests, along with the U.S. Marshals' Fugitive Investigative Strike Team (FIST) in Glynco GA, or with FBI Special Agents at Quantico VA, including the use of tear gas and hand cuffs, if their mission was really to CAPTURE or kill, not just kill.

Obama is at fault for sending in men only trained to be assassins. As an attorney he should know that "bringing to justice" does not mean lynching. He should have sent in, or at least included some U.S. Marshals to do it RIGHT, and keep the respect of the world as the good guys. With Bin Laden alive and in custody, we would show that America has principles it actually stands for, not just gives lip service to.

We would have gotten a lot more information about terrorists from Bin Laden. We would have heard if he planned 9/11 or not. Dead men tell no tales. Dead men don't plead not guilty.

yep. you have never been in a gunfight.

 

[Army of One]

yep. you have never been in a gunfight.

But I'm sure he's seen plenty of them in movies. Same thing, right?

 

[000063]

But I'm sure he's seen plenty of them in movies. Same thing, right?

I haven't either, just read a lot of books, and even I know he's wrong.

 

[alexi_drago]

And the point of using a computer without the internet?
Pong? ........

Damn, now I have this image of him sitting there for 5 or 6 years going 'just a minute, I'm about to beat my record'

 

[Fly Poster]

Has to be a conspiracy, everybody knows you can't take the Bin out on a bank holiday!

 

[Army of One]

I haven't either, just read a lot of books, and even I know he's wrong.

I'm guessing someone would have to repeatedly bang their head against a hard object in order to not know that he's wrong.

 

[Scott Jurgenson]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but how does anyone who doubts OBL is dead explain this article...

EDIT: I went back a forum to the CS Main and there was a thread started there, but I think this is sill relevant to this discussion.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/06/al-qaeda-confirms-bin-ladens-death-islamist-websites/

"CAIRO -- Al Qaeda confirmed the killing of Usama bin Laden Friday and vowed revenge, saying Americans' "happiness will turn to sadness" in the first statement by the terror network since its leader was slain in a U.S. commando raid against his Pakistani hideout.

The confirmation came as newly uncovered documents found in bin Laden's residence revealed Al Qaeda plans for derailing an American train on the upcoming 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks.

Terror experts have said bin Laden's death on Monday was a setback for Al Qaeda but the threat of attacks remains and could even spike in coming days from individuals or small extremist groups inspired to take revenge for the killing.

The statement, dated Tuesday but posted Friday on militant websites, opens the way for the group to name a successor to bin Laden. His deputy Ayman al-Zawahri is now the most prominent figure in the group and a likely contender to take his place.

"The blood of the holy warrior sheik, Usama bin Laden, God bless him, is too precious to us and to all Muslims to go in vain," the statement said. "We will remain, God willing, a curse chasing the Americans and their agents, following them outside and inside their countries."

"Soon, God willing, their happiness will turn to sadness," it said, "their blood will be mingled with their tears."

The group gave no indication how it will retaliate. But separate details emerged Friday showing that bin Laden was scheming how to hit the United States hard again............(continued on site)"

 

[MikeW]

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but how does anyone who doubts OBL is dead explain this article...

Not difficult: they'll just say "there's no such thing as al Qaeda", "it's just a fake", etc etc.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

When it comes from the mouths of the people who support him I think that's reasonably compelling in the lack of anything else. Those guys will use anything to do good propaganda, and UBL's death is no exception.

 

[Sunstealer]

I don't know...why don't you ask the thousands of people who used computers before there was an internet?

There were computers before the internet? Wow!

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

Obama should have sent US Marshals FIST to bring Bin Laden in alive

It was an anti-terrorist/war action, which is not the same as a police action.

We don't have 2 standards for American justice. We either set a high example to the world, or we do not.

You keep blaming them for not knowing something it was impossible to determine at the time.

There were agents watching the place from down the street and from satellite photos. They can count guards.

Also, women can be just as deadly and suicidal as men

No they can't, without a gun. Women are generally smaller, weaker, and more likely to want to live to protect her children. Real men are stronger than women, especially 5 foot tall. No man has reason to be afraid of significant physical damage from a small, young lady without a weapon.

She would have had balls to rush an armed soldier, trained in martial arts. I doubt this is the real story. We've heard several different stories, starting with her being used as a human shield.

For all they knew, OBL deliberately had her charge them

We have no proof she "charged" the soldier. Even if she did, what could she do? If the SEALs have fear of women, they need to go to FIST for more training. A skilled U.S. Marshal watches intently to determine if the suspect is reaching for a weapon. They just woke Bin Laden and his wife up from bed, so they were in their pajamas.

to buy time for him to prime a vest or use/acquire a weapon.

Bin Laden could hear he was surrounded, and was not so stupid as to try to defeat 40 soldiers.

He neutralized threats. He did his job.

Oh, so now we call killing unarmed women "neutralizing" - to give it a euphemism. Shooting a lady who posed no significant threat is no one's job.

If someone is a threat in a combat zone, they get shot.

It was someone's home, including a children's playground, and peaceful neighborhood. We do not arbitrarily declare any area "a combat zone" as a "ethics, morals and justice free zone".

So now the US Marshals need "training in arrests", when you cited them as paragons of law enforcement only a short time ago.

They are paragons of law enforcement. That is what I meant. The SEALs need to train with the US Marshals if they are to be used in any mission where capture is the preferable objective.

Even cops shoot people when they pose threats.

Not all the time. If you are at a protest, or stopped for a traffic ticket, and make a "threatening gesture" (such as flipping the bird) they are are trained to distinguish what is truly threatening or not. Do you say it is ok for them to just shoot.

He's trained to be a soldier, and the SEALs had full discretion to kill him if the situation warranted.

He should have been instructed to capture first. The situation did NOT warrant killing unarmed man and especially an unarmed woman.

Marshals hunt down fugitives. They don't often engage in covert anti-terrorist actions.

Bin Laden was a fugitive. Obama should have sent Interpol or the US Marshals.

Such as respect it's enemies? Oh, wait, they did that by expiditng his burial in accordance with Muslim custom.

They quickly destroyed the evidence. It is not Muslim custom to dump a body in the ocean. Muslim custom is to have a funeral with the family present, like everyone else.

The US got a lot of info anyway.

Not as much as what Bin Laden had in his head.

Now conspiracy theorists will suspect that Bin Laden was killed to protect Cheney et al.
Bin Laden could have cleared or confirmed them as suspects, if he wasn't lynched.

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Double tap isn't a navy SEALS thing, it's just plain common sense.

You're preaching to the choir. (I've wanted to use that for years - many thanks!) What I was suggesting is that this woman seems to think it is some sort of Navy SEAL Trademark and they invented it, and that 'double tap' is synonymous with 'Navy Seal Team 6'.

It's not taught outside of the SF environment in the British Army though.

 

[Sunstealer]

She would have had balls to rush an armed soldier, trained in martial arts.

Stop watching Steven Seagal movies!

 

[twinstead]

This just goes to show that no matter WHAT the US does, somebody is going to have a problem with it. Somehow we are expected to please everybody involved yet still get the job done.

 

[000063]

We don't have 2 standards for American justice. We either set a high example to the world, or we do not.

Keep backpedaling. First you acted like it was a police action, and that the marshals never kill anyone. You got proven wrong on that. Then you started talking about the justice department. Nope, no sale. Now you just keep nattering on about "justice", ignoring the fact the standards of conduct for a counter-terroist action or a war are quite different from those used by your local PD. It's like saying people should act exactly the same at a wedding and a funeral because they both take place in a church.

There were agents watching the place from down the street and from satellite photos. They can count guards.

But they can't count who's inside the house, what weapons may be present, or whether the whole place is rigged to blow at the flick of a switch.

No they can't, without a gun.

I have a little sister. I outweigh her by fifty pounds and six inches. She could easily hand my rear to me.

Women are generally smaller, weaker,

Operative word highlighted.

and more likely to want to live to protect her children.

Stereotype.

Real men are stronger than women, especially 5 foot tall.

No True Scotsman, switched from "generally" to an absolute truth. It says something for you that you can't be consistent for two consecutive sentences.

No man has reason to be afraid of significant physical damage from a small, 29 year old lady without a weapon.

Unless, of course, the woman may be armed or wearing a suicide vest, in which case caution is quite reasonable. Not "fear", I emphasize. "Caution". No word-twisitng.

She would have had balls to rush an armed soldier, trained in martial arts. I doubt this is the real story. We've heard several different stories, starting with her being used as a human shield.

So of course, this one has to be a lie, right? People lift cars off their kids in emergencies; a woman could actually discommode a soldier if she were so inclined.

We have no proof she "charged" the soldier. Even if she did, what could she do? If the SEALs have fear of women, they need to go to FIST for more training.

Again, not fear. Stop using that straw man.

A skilled U.S. Marshal

No True Scotsman, unsupported claim.

watches intently to determine if the suspect is reaching for a weapon. They just woke Bin Laden and his wife up from bed, so they were in their pajamas.

"Freeze! Don't move!" *suspect moves* "I said don't move!" *suspect keeps moving* *suspect gets shot*

It's even more cut and dried in a war. If you don't want to be viewed as a threat, lie facedown on the ground with your hands behind your head. Even that's not guaranteed, if there's a risk of a suicide vest.

Bin Laden could hear he was surrounded, and was not so stupid as to try to defeat 40 soldiers.

24, and he didn't know what the heck was going on.

Oh, so now we call killing unarmed women "neutralizing" - to give it a euphemism. Shooting a lady who posed no significant threat is no one's job.

I'm calling it that as a shorthand for "making someone stop being a threat". It's generally used for killing people. I'm using the more intense term, though I don't know if it's technically correct. Nice job semanticizing, though.

It was someone's home, including a children's playground, and peaceful neighborhood. We do not arbitrarily declare any area "a combat zone" as a "ethics, morals and justice free zone".

Hyperbole, emotive language. There were big walls around the place, which would generally be enough to stop any bullets flying outward.

They are paragons of law enforcement. That is what I meant. The SEALs need to train with the US Marshals if they are to be used in any mission where capture is the preferable objective.

That's like saying social workers need to train firefighters how to remove babies from cribs in fires; their expertise in the matter is under very different conditions.

Not all the time. If you are at a protest, or stopped for a traffic ticket, and make a "threatening gesture" (such as flipping the bird) they are are trained to distinguish what is truly threatening or not. Do you say it is ok for them to just shoot.

Gosh, I dunno? Am I a terrorist with a history of painting myself as a messiah figure who would likely be very glad to become a martyr? Are these hypothetical assailants in my house, which may be rigged up with who-knows-what?

He should have been instructed to capture first. The situation did NOT warrant killing unarmed man and especially an unarmed woman.

He apparently thought it did, and could not know either of the two were unarmed.

Bin Laden was a fugitive. Obama should have sent Interpol

No arrest authority in most parts of the world, very little counter-terrorism experience.

or the US Marshals.

Note the part of their name where it says "US".

They quickly destroyed the evidence. It is not Muslim custom to dump a body in the ocean. Muslim custom is to have a funeral with the family present, like everyone else.

Muslim custom allows sea burial. You've descended to the level of bald-faced denial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_at_sea#Islam

Also, if an enemy may dig up the grave to mutilate the body, it is also allowed to bury the deceased at sea to avoid mutilation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_funeral

Burial rituals should normally take place as soon as possible

The general rule is "24 hours", such as Saddam, who was returned and buried in about 22.

Also, Saudi Arabia didn't want him back, and Christianity, AFAIK, doesn't actually require family to be present. You're confusing cultural custom with religious.

Not as much as what Bin Laden had in his head.

Yes, and?

Now conspiracy theorists will suspect that Bin Laden was killed to protect Cheney et al.

They've been crying he was framed/on ice for years before, why stop now? Evidence is only

Bin Laden could have cleared or confirmed them as suspects, if he wasn't lynched.

Call me crazy, but a guy who twice denied taking part in two separate terrorist incidents, then admitted it later, is not exactly a credible witness.

Also, he's had over 9 years to protest his innocence in any more than a token fashion. He hasn't. As a general rule, innocent men don't confess to acts of terror for no reason. If they had something over on him, why not force him to claim Saddam had WMDs back in 2002?

Your series of posts are made up of nothing more than an arbitrary and uninformed standard you are holding the SEALs to, despite it existing in nothing more than your own head.I wash my hands of you.

 

[Justin39640]

Agreed. But it would appear in that split second, that only ONE man felt threatened enough to squeeze off a single aimed shot to the head. Call it an argument from incredulity, but that doesn't sit right in that situation with me.

I don't think SEALs use the "spray and pray" tactic.
it could be:
Kick in door.
Suspect appears to lunge.
SEAL fires.

After that shot hit his head, OBL was no longer a threat.

 

[332nd]

No they can't, without a gun. Women are generally smaller, weaker, and more likely to want to live to protect her children. Real men are stronger than women, especially 5 foot tall. No man has reason to be afraid of significant physical damage from a small, young lady without a weapon.

Really? I'd bet these young ladies would disagree.

http://www.mmarising.com/rankings/womens-pound-for-pound-top-15/

 

[Triterope]

And the point of using a computer without the internet?

I just aged a little.

 

[Army of One]

I don't think SEALs use the "spray and pray" tactic.
it could be:
Kick in door.
Suspect appears to lunge.
SEAL fires.

After that shot hit his head, OBL was no longer a threat.

That would be my thought as well, especially if it was the first guy through the door and it happened virtually instantaneously.

Again though, all of this is just pure speculation. Eventually the details will come out (it may be awhile).

 

[alexi_drago]

I just aged a little.

As much as waiting for a 5 1/4" diskette dropping through the door?