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Merged Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham/Science smack-down!/What Bill Nye Doesn't Know

I fear that by doing this debate, especially in a Creationist tourist trap, Nye, is unwittingly giving credence to the "Teach the Debate" canard used by the anti science crowd.
 
joesixpack said:
When I did attend church, it was the Roman Catholic Church, and when I was kid I attended a parochial school. At no time was "creationism" ever taught, nor was the 6-day creation ever treated as anything but a fairy tale. Since a large percentage of the US population are Catholic (about 25% according to Wikipedia), I find it difficult to believe that such a large percentage would be young Earth Creationists.
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Maybe only 90 year olds responded to the poll, and all the young people when polled said, ``I`m sorry, but i dont have time right now.``
Then gallup said people polled were diverse. Men, women, white, black, Jews, rocking chair types, putzer in the garden types, etc. Diverse.
Lol.
 
They should have invited the Pope to get in on it.
Could you imagine? The Pope: ``Well umm, you see umm, ah yeah ah well you know that the Bible teaches umm, yes, that uh, there was uh God in the beginning and uh since um he was......(one hour later........).
That WOULD really be a treat though. I bet if aired on tv, the ratings would be quite high.
Headlines the day before: ``Pope to debate well known scientist, tomorrow! Airs 7 PM.........``
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
joesixpack said:
Could it be that 46% believe in the scientific view with the exception of human beings?
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A few of them. yeah. But, not enough to mean that there aren't significant numbers of creationists, or even full bore YECs. Polls that ask questions worded to focus on plants or non-human animals rather than asking specifically about humans knock the 46% number down to about 40%.
And keep in mind that among the 50-60% that support evolution, most of them believe god guided the process.

In round numbers, most polls indicate about 20% YEC, 20% OEC, 45% (at best) theistically guided evolution, 15% non-theistically guided evolution .

Yet more evidence: http://www.pewresearch.org/2009/02/...hday-americans-still-divided-about-evolution/
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That's even more depressing than the 46% figure.
 
joesixpack said:
I am sure the nice people at Gallup are above fudging numbers, and I certainly don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories in regards to their polls, but this result is mind boggling, and frankly quite hard to believe. In my entire life, I think I have known only about 20 people who believe in the biblical story of creation. It is very difficult for me to get my head around these poll results.

Could it be that 46% believe in the scientific view with the exception of human beings?

I'm honestly trying to figure out a loophole, because honestly, this does not fit at all with my experience living in America. I have a pretty diverse circle of friends.
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My experience is that lots of people will say they believe in creationism in polls because they feel guilty for not going to church or otherwise not being religious enough in their minds. But when it really comes down to it they tend to side with science.

Basically those poll numbers show enormous social pressure to answer certain ways. But those same people have no issue using the results of science grounded in evolutionary biology everyday.
 
Where is all this need to deny the evidence coming from? There are significant numbers of creationists in this country.

Those of you citing your own personal experience or circle of friends: Can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence that the polls cited are wrong?
 
Travis said:
Basically those poll numbers show enormous social pressure to answer certain ways. But those same people have no issue using the results of science grounded in evolutionary biology everyday.
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I would like to believe that this was true, but I frankly can't see that the belief would be justified. People answer polls anonymously so I don't understand how social pressure would play that big a role.

I remember reading somewhere that people overstate their church attendance in polls, but that may be more due to self deception than a conscious effort to misrepresent oneself. Perhaps people even lie to themselves about their beliefs? The very nature of belief and the human mind is a muddy thing. I mean, very few people behave as if there were an afterlife, in spite of the fact that many people state firmly that there is. What do the people who state that they believe actually believe?
 
John Jones said:
Two words: Southern Baptists.

I don't know if they truly believe in YEC, but a large number of them claim to believe it. :jaw-dropp
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Just for the record, there are non-fundamentalist Southern Baptists. I was one for the first 20 years of my life. I went to a fairly large church, 1000+ members, and we were taught Genesis was not to be taken literally.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Where is all this need to deny the evidence coming from? There are significant numbers of creationists in this country.

Those of you citing your own personal experience or circle of friends: Can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence that the polls cited are wrong?
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I wish I could, but I can't. I also can't seem to shake this nagging feeling that the polls are somehow wrong. I know they certainly show something at odds with my personal experience and I don't understand why. Your Pew Research link demonstrates that a significant number of poll respondents didn't seem to understand the very concepts they were being asked about or didn't understand the questions themselves.

I honestly don't believe that nearly half of the US population believes in a 6 thousand year old earth created in 6 days. Look at the number (and popularity) of children's books which explicitly state that dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years.
 
joesixpack said:
Your Pew Research link demonstrates that a significant number of poll respondents didn't seem to understand the very concepts they were being asked about or didn't understand the questions themselves.
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Well, that's not surprising. It's also wouldn't be surprising that a lot of the people on the creationist side hold a lot of contradictory opinions.
(people in general do a lot of that).
joesixpack said:
I honestly don't believe that nearly half of the US population believes in a 6 thousand year old earth created in 6 days. Look at the number (and popularity) of children's books which explicitly state that dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years.
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Remember, the nearly half number was specifically for the "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years". That could include people who think God gave the human animal it's soul recently. The YEC number is more in the 30% range. Still a significant and large number of people.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Remember, the nearly half number was specifically for the "God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years". That could include people who think God gave the human animal it's soul recently.
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I imagine that the general level of ignorance in regards to the archeological record of humans would make it easy to hold a variety of opinions of that nature. I also think a theist is likely to say "I don't really know, but I think it must be something like this"


The YEC number is more in the 30% range. Still a significant and large number of people.
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Still a lot, but an easier number to believe (unfortunately).
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Do I understand that you're trying to imply that multiple polling organizations are conspiring to give the impression that we have more creationists than we really do?
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Perhaps you have not read the Huff book I linked to. If not, I highly recommend it. It has nothing to do with creationism or evolution, and everything to do with how polls may be biased, intentionally or not.
 
Yes, I have read it. So you are implying (actually saying) that the polls are highly suspect.

Are all the polls so wrong that we can conclude that the statement "there aren't a significant number of young earth creationists in the US" is true? I'll go with 20% being the minimum number for "significant" here, since that is the number even the outlier polls still come up with for a lower bound.
 
joesixpack said:
I would like to believe that this was true, but I frankly can't see that the belief would be justified. People answer polls anonymously so I don't understand how social pressure would play that big a role.

I remember reading somewhere that people overstate their church attendance in polls, but that may be more due to self deception than a conscious effort to misrepresent oneself. Perhaps people even lie to themselves about their beliefs? The very nature of belief and the human mind is a muddy thing. I mean, very few people behave as if there were an afterlife, in spite of the fact that many people state firmly that there is. What do the people who state that they believe actually believe?
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My perception of the world is only about 5 people, give or take, will someday pass thru the Pearly Gates,(um, hear the one about the 3 nuns?, lol), and everybody else is fooling themselves.
Why, just the way i see people drive, i have them pegged for going to hell. Just on that basis alone!; driving.
 
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joesixpack said:
I wish I could, but I can't. I also can't seem to shake this nagging feeling that the polls are somehow wrong. I know they certainly show something at odds with my personal experience and I don't understand why. Your Pew Research link demonstrates that a significant number of poll respondents didn't seem to understand the very concepts they were being asked about or didn't understand the questions themselves.

I honestly don't believe that nearly half of the US population believes in a 6 thousand year old earth created in 6 days. Look at the number (and popularity) of children's books which explicitly state that dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years.
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The logical conclusion would be that your personal experience is not indicative of what Americans believe.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Yes, I have read it. So you are implying (actually saying) that the polls are highly suspect.

Are all the polls so wrong that we can conclude that the statement "there aren't a significant number of young earth creationists in the US" is true? I'll go with 20% being the minimum number for "significant" here, since that is the number even the outlier polls still come up with for a lower bound.
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Good, I'm glad you have read Huff. I am saying that ALL polls are highly suspect, some more than others.

Huff titles a chapter in his book, "How to talk back to a statistic," and in that chapter are some sub-headings: Who says so?, How does he know?, What's missing?, and Does it make sense?.

Wise words to live by. In any case, all statistics should be taken with a grain of salt until the possible biases and errors have been investigated, not to mention replication.
 
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