Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LAL]

In Firefox, when you right click, you get "view image" as one option. When you click that, the image opens in a new browser window using its source URL. That can be very handy for posting links, since you can then use that URL to hot link to the image itself, and it also can be handy if you want to print the image without bothering to copy and paste it.

I tried the same thing in Explorer, but the option was grayed out, so I guess if you're using that, you may be out of luck until you get Firefox. I do recommend FF, which should run fine in Millennium (It's happy enough in my Win98 box), and will not disturb any of your existing settings. You can set either as your default, but the can easily be run simultaneously if you like.

I just tried View Source in Explorer and it showed me a whole page of HTML. A poster on BFF did that on a BFRO page and found a rant against some former members who had worked their tails off as volunteers for the organization. It was so low it was almost beneath MM. We were discussing it when the board was hacked, and some suspected MM, but apparently it had nothing to do with him. The thought that it might have been a JREFer never crossed my mind.

Looks like Firefox is a free download, but I've been having trouble with AOL freezing up my computer (again) and I'm afraid to add anything until I get this figured out.

In the meantime I may just continue to beg people to post their links. I really don't have a lot of time for this (says she having just spent most of the day on it - again).

Thanks again for the tips.

 

[LAL]

Furthermore, he claims the rock weighs "3/4 pound"...

Since Mr. Davis is now posting on this board he can speak for himself. Many on this board may not be familiar with Mr. Davis' work, perhaps Marlon will be willing to advise us on other details he finds in this film. I believe this includes, but is not limited to, scars, boils, buckshot wounds, and eye infections.

I've never read any of that. I certainly think Mr. Davis should speak for himself, just as you have.

How come when we talk about Richard Noll he doesn't show up?

 

[LAL]

I don't recall saying it would be impossible, but this particular squatch seems a lot more timid than most. I'm still not sure how he was able to leave his dingle-berry impressions behind.

I thought dingle berries were something else, like something that would be caught in the hair. Regional difference in slang?

You have Murphy's book. Can you see what colobus is describing in the photo? The testicle print's there too, but faint. Doesn't look at all squashed.

I especially appreciated what he said about the elk hoof prints.

Nah, by all means tell him I'm still unconvinced the impression in the mud was created by a squatch. Now, if he (or anyone) happens to bag a squatch while it's crawling about in a mudhole reaching for fruit, I'll gladly change my opinion.

RayG

I'm wondering why you're so ready to dismiss the opinions of those who have actually investigated this stuff.

I think I'll just point him to the thread. Maybe he'll join us too.

 

[RayG]

Except in the interview with Noll. He says he cast the one remaining track.

You mean this interview?

<snip>"Rick: "That's an excellent cast for being in snow."

Dr. Krantz: "Oh... that one you saw here is not from that."

Rick: "Oh..."

Dr. Krantz: "That one was taken in late '69. The previous event, where the same individual came through, ahh and it was in soft dirt, not snow. Somebody up in Colville, butcher by trade, made the two casts. Rene Dahinden has the originals. But somebody put those in a very fine bed of dirt and made copies of them, and I was able to get a hold of those and borrow them and make the molds."</snip>

Of course, the only way to dismiss Krantz' evidence is to dismiss him as arrogant.

Like you do with Dennett?

It's pretty convincing if he wasn't wrong.

Dahinden certainly had suspicions about the Bossburg incident.

RayG

 

[LAL]

In this BFF thread, MK Davis (primateer) moves the audience beyond the question of whether the hand is real and sets upon the question of if Patty it clutching a stone in this hand.

I don't know if it's funny, sad or both to watch the reactions. Bigfooters might say that these "intriguing" questions flesh out the modern understanding of Bigfoot and of the PGF.

I do think that nobody has yet provided functional evidence that Bigfoot is not a mythological creature in the very first place.

Note Bipto's caution as well as JayDee's, Stacy's.........Good grief. This was before Belle was banned!

And this:

"RUN!!!!

BLOBSQUATCHES ARE THROWING BLOBSTONES!!!!! "

from Footracker.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=6069&st=40

There are reports of them throwing things. Primates do this. Bears, Moose, Elk and Marsupials do not.

I don't think anyone's provided functional evidence that Bigfoot is a mythological creature in the very first place

 

[RayG]

I thought dingle berries were something else, like something that would be caught in the hair. Regional difference in slang?

Yes, I believe you're referring to willnots.

I'm wondering why you're so ready to dismiss the opinions of those who have actually investigated this stuff.

Because not a single investigator saw anything even remotely resembling a squatch on that trip. Not a single clear footprint, no sightings, no nothing. This is something I discussed at length with Richard Noll and others over on the BFF. If they had presented convincing evidence I would have been convinced. They did not, and I am not.

RayG

 

[LAL]

Like you do with Dennett?

Has Dennett examined the Skookum Cast?

He actually had me going on Marx when I first read the article, but I really didn't know much about it at the time. I was living in the woods and couldn't have gotten online in 1994. I was using the computer for serious stuff, like drawing and..........uh, Sim City.

Dahinden certainly had suspicions about the Bossburg incident.

RayG

I believe Krantz said he never challenged him on it. In the appendix of Bigfoot/Sasquatch Evidence, in discussing Dahinden's reaction on the Indiana cast, he notes Dahinden otherwise supported his work (pg. 299). Dahinden was suspicious of the Jeep, but he checked it out. He was suspicious before the incident or it wouldn't have taken him four days to decide to go. I get a sense Dahinden was pretty suspicious in general and was rather out for himself rather than being one to share evidence for "the good of science".

His account of Bossburg was pretty hilarious. He was in on the Skamania County incidents, too. John Green wrote me he remembered the trackway well. That was in early 1969, but no one seems to have heard of those incidents these days. I was really surprised to find an account in his book. I'll have to buy it.

 

[LAL]

Yes, I believe you're referring to willnots.



Because not a single investigator saw anything even remotely resembling a squatch on that trip. Not a single clear footprint, no sightings, no nothing. This is something I discussed at length with Richard Noll and others over on the BFF. If they had presented convincing evidence I would have been convinced. They did not, and I am not.

RayG

Skamania County has been a "hot spot" for decades. Do other people's sightings and track finds count?

If Dr. Fish had seen one would that have convinced you? Noll? MM (heaven forbid)? Or would you just think that would have been too convenient?

 

[LAL]

You mean this interview?


<snip>"Rick: "That's an excellent cast for being in snow."

Dr. Krantz: "Oh... that one you saw here is not from that."

Rick: "Oh..."

Dr. Krantz: "That one was taken in late '69. The previous event, where the same individual came through, ahh and it was in soft dirt, not snow. Somebody up in Colville, butcher by trade, made the two casts. Rene Dahinden has the originals. But somebody put those in a very fine bed of dirt and made copies of them, and I was able to get a hold of those and borrow them and make the molds."</snip>

Yes, that interview:


Rick: "Nice of him."

Dr. Krantz: "The very last one... the crippled foot, he uncovered for me when I was there."

Rick: "And that was in snow?"

Dr. Krantz: "Yes. So me and my friends made a cast of that and we still got it.

Rick: "How did you make the cast in snow?"

Dr. Krantz: "Just poured... ahmm mixed the plaster and poured it in. Everybody seems to think you can't make plaster casts in snow but you sure can. Ahmm we made that one and it turned out fine. I made plaster casts of my first Irish Wolfhound's footprints in snow, and everyone said you can't do it and so I tried it; worked perfectly. When the plaster is starting to set, it warms up considerably but it is already set to a degree where it is not going to move." "

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/noll_krantz.htm

 

[RayG]

Has Dennett examined the Skookum Cast?

He's probably not allowed. Can't have anyone skeptical looking at it ya know. Bad vibes and all that I guess.

He actually had me going on Marx when I first read the article...

Sounds like Dahinden didn't trust Marx at all (more so than the general distrust he seemed to have for everyone).

Dahinden was suspicious of the Jeep, but he checked it out. He was suspicious before the incident or it wouldn't have taken him four days to decide to go. I get a sense Dahinden was pretty suspicious in general and was rather out for himself rather than being one to share evidence for "the good of science".

He was suspicious of a great many things. "Why did the tracks happen to be just there, where he would be sure to go every day, where he checked all the time, within a few miles of the garbage dump where the thing had been reported seen all the time?"

Not surprisingly, nothing was confirmed at Bossburg.

RayG

 

[bruto]

I thought dingle berries were something else, like something that would be caught in the hair. Regional difference in slang?

Regional or something else, that's what I always heard it as. Of course, given the squatch's reputation for poor hygiene...oh never mind.

 

[RayG]

Weren't we talking about frame 352?

I thought we were talking about film/image manipulations, modifications, enhancements, touch-ups, etc., but ended up nitpicking about the finger anomaly of frame 352.

I was pointing out enhancements that have been made to other film frames after Patterson developed his film.

RayG

 

[LAL]

He's probably not allowed. Can't have anyone skeptical looking at it ya know. Bad vibes and all that I guess.

Nope. People with credentials in a related field first, the rest with the rest of the public. Did he even try? Radford at least tried and bitched about being put off.

Sounds like Dahinden didn't trust Marx at all (more so than the general distrust he seemed to have for everyone).

Marx was untrustworthy. But his hoaxing evidently came later and was quickly exposed.

He was suspicious of a great many things. "Why did the tracks happen to be just there, where he would be sure to go every day, where he checked all the time, within a few miles of the garbage dump where the thing had been reported seen all the time?"

Not surprisingly, nothing was confirmed at Bossburg.

RayG

Depends on what you mean by confirmed, I suppose.

 

[LAL]

I thought we were talking about film/image manipulations, modifications, enhancements, touch-ups, etc., but ended up nitpicking about the finger anomaly of frame 352.

I was pointing out enhancements that have been made to other film frames after Patterson developed his film.

RayG

That was where I came in, but the charges of clipping and editing and otherwise tampering with the film have been going on for many months and threads. I thought this discussion was on the blow-ups and gifs on frame 352.

I don't think any of the enhancements were done with intent to defraud.

 

[RayG]

Nope. People with credentials in a related field first, the rest with the rest of the public. Did he even try? Radford at least tried and bitched about being put off.

Did he even try? I dunno, would it do any good? It didn't for Radford, and I'd have to say if anyone 'bitched' about it, it was me not Radford (on the BFF). I'd like to see as many people as possible have a look at it. It's worth noting that John Green was allowed to examine it first-hand. He doesn't seem to possess any credentials in a related field.

Marx was untrustworthy. But his hoaxing evidently came later and was quickly exposed.

How do you know for certain his hoaxing came later? His hoaxing seemed to surface during the Bossburg incident, not afterwards, if we are to believe Dahinden.

Depends on what you mean by confirmed, I suppose.

No one confirmed that bigfoot made the tracks. None of the investigators, except for Marx, actually witnessed a bigfoot, and he not only witnessed one he took a movie of it. Turns out the movie was faked though. Can you think of a single thing about bigfoot that was confirmed by the Bossburg fiasco? I can't.

This quote from Dahinden's Sasquatch, (page 164) probably sums it up best:

So the crippled footprints of 1969 had set in motion a chain of events that went full circle and arrived at nothing...

RayG

 

[RayG]

That was where I came in, but the charges of clipping and editing and otherwise tampering with the film have been going on for many months and threads. I thought this discussion was on the blow-ups and gifs on frame 352.

My bad, I thought it was just a continuation of the point William Parcher was try to make when he said "that subsequent manipulation and modification of the PGF has happened after Patterson was at Bluff Creek."

And you replied, "Bunk."

Remember?

I don't think any of the enhancements were done with intent to defraud.

Nor did William say they were, he was merely pointing out that manipulations and modifications have been carried out, and I provided some information to support his claim.

That is, unless I'm sadly mistaken and the enhancements, modifications, and touch-ups that I indicated were NOT what William had in mind.

What say you William?

RayG

 

[M.K.Davis]

Furthermore, he claims the rock weighs "3/4 pound"...

Since Mr. Davis is now posting on this board he can speak for himself. Many on this board may not be familiar with Mr. Davis' work, perhaps Marlon will be willing to advise us on other details he finds in this film. I believe this includes, but is not limited to, scars, boils, buckshot wounds, and eye infections.

Hey Matt. I'll elaborate on some of this, if I can get the photos to upload. M.K.

 

[M.K.Davis]

Scars and boils.

Furthermore, he claims the rock weighs "3/4 pound"...

Since Mr. Davis is now posting on this board he can speak for himself. Many on this board may not be familiar with Mr. Davis' work, perhaps Marlon will be willing to advise us on other details he finds in this film. I believe this includes, but is not limited to, scars, boils, buckshot wounds, and eye infections.

This is probably the highest quality single print ever produced from the film. The only reason that I called this a boil, is because it looks like one to me. It appears to be a raised artifact. When I say "raised" , I mean that it appears to be catching sunlight. Low sun angles cause "high relief". Astronomers like to wait until the surface of the moon is being illuminated obliquely so that the details appear to "stand up". Light on top, in shadow on the bottom, strongly suggests that this is not a film artifact. Scars? I call them scars because they appear that way to me. The white line on the inside of the wrist in the two photos , looks like a scar. I'm perfectly willing to call it something else. Perhaps you have a suggestion? M.K.

 

[PixyMisa]

The white line on the inside of the wrist in the two photos , looks like a scar. I'm perfectly willing to call it something else. Perhaps you have a suggestion?

Looks like stitching to me. Maybe bigfoot split a seam and had to be repaired.

 

[LAL]

It is my understanding that upon Rene Dahinden's death, the copyrights on the Cibachomes were transferred to his son(s). E. Dahinden may be the son of R. Dahinden, not his wife. That needs clarification. I think I read that Rene bought the Cibachromes from Patty Patterson (wife of Roger) and then declared copyright on them. That needs clarification too.

Dahinden's ex' name is Wanja. Wallace's was Elna. I think I got the names mixed up. Dahinden bought Gimlin's rights. I believe those reverted to Patricia Patterson on René's death. He spent a lot of money straightening things out; Roger had oversold the rights. I don't know about the Cibachromes.

It seems that the first time that the Dahinden Cibachrome of frame 352 appeared in print was in a book titled Manlike Monsters on Trial (copyright 1980). It has the "hand".

This is a scan of that image in that book. You can see the Dahinden copyright script at the bottom. I cannot make out the date after his name. What is it? Is it 1968?...

Looks like it.