Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bear artifacts were found, including brown bear fossils (which were considered important, because brown bears are no longer found on the island).

Huntster,
Thanks for mentioning this. I had no idea that bears made artifacts. Perhaps you could expand on this, or could it be your continuing confusion with the terms "archeology" and " "paleontology".

Robert Klaus (sitting in the middle of a Bigfoot Hotbed).
 
Huntster,
Thanks for mentioning this. I had no idea that bears made artifacts. Perhaps you could expand on this, or could it be your continuing confusion with the terms "archeology" and " "paleontology".

Robert Klaus (sitting in the middle of a Bigfoot Hotbed).

Thanks for the correction. I'll rephrase:

Bear fossils were found, including brown bear fossils (which were considered important, because brown bears are no longer found on the island).

Better?
 
The links you mentioned (in posts 827, 830, 828, 829, 854, and 855) had little to nothing to do with digs, and the only ones demonstrating that Alaska state biologists actually entered the field in Southeast Alaska were Ray's posts citing the Kuiu Island black bear study, where the new attempt at counting black bears in coastal rainforest was tried with success.

It appears that some of you simply posted the link to the ADFG publications index and called it good, without having read anything.

That's okay. I've read them all.

The links related to to fossil sites where at other posts.

You read them. Then you read the parts related to field work periods, collection of fur, among other things. Note that I also posted links to the unis showing their research programmes that require field work.
 
The links related to to fossil sites where at other posts.....

Yeah. Make sure to thank those who posted them.

...Note that I also posted links to the unis showing their research programmes that require field work....

I noted your link to UAA. I couldn't find anything related to an archeological or PALEONTOLOGICAL (happy, folks?) dig or discovery.

Perhaps you can link me to a specific site?

UAJ may be conducting field research in SE Alaska, but I doubt it. If so, it is ARCHEOLOGICAL, and not paleontological.
 
Yeah. Make sure to thank those who posted them.



I noted your link to UAA. I couldn't find anything related to an archeological or PALEONTOLOGICAL (happy, folks?) dig or discovery.

Perhaps you can link me to a specific site?

UAJ may be conducting field research in SE Alaska, but I doubt it. If so, it is ARCHEOLOGICAL, and not paleontological.
"Hey boss, I found these fossil bones of either an unknown primate or an extremely large human. What should I do with them"

"Dammit, Jim! The is a archeological dig, not paleontological! Throw them away!"

.
.
.

Nah... doesn't sound right to me, either.
 
Yeah. Make sure to thank those who posted them.



I noted your link to UAA. I couldn't find anything related to an archeological or PALEONTOLOGICAL (happy, folks?) dig or discovery.

Perhaps you can link me to a specific site?

UAJ may be conducting field research in SE Alaska, but I doubt it. If so, it is ARCHEOLOGICAL, and not paleontological.

It seems you missed post #1197, where I posted links where you can find informations regarding fossil sites of "the right age". And yes, of course I am glad the other posters presented links, and I say: Thanks folks, your help is appreciated. Huntster, you should say "thanks people" too, since they are also trying to help clear your misconceptions.

That particular post is also interesting regarding the common claims regarding non-preservation of fossils at forest environments - the "acid soils" line included.
 
Just a couple of things here, nothing I'm claiming as particularly original. First, the bigfoot phenomenon, originally a sort of tall tale, has clearly taken on all the hallmarks of a classic belief system, based on a mystery. That is to say, one doesn't think there is a bigfoot, one believes it: faith is the measure by which sasquatchers are judged.

The Native accounts have been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. One of the earliest references to them is in an 1841 letter from a missionary to his superior. J.W. Burns, Government Indian Agent-teacher, combined several coastal words for them, primarily the Salish word to coin the term "Sasquatch" in the 20's. He was soundly contradicted by Chief Red Eagle when he stated at Indian Sasquatch Days at Harrison Hot Springs they were no longer around and white men don't see them.

He came to "believe":

""I am convinced," said Mr. Burns, "that survivors of the Sasquatch do still inhabit the inaccessible interior of British Columbia. Only by sheer luck however, is a white man likely to sight one of them because like wild animals, they instinctively avoid all contact with civilization and in that rocky country it is impossible to track them down. I still live in hope however, of some day surprising a sasquatch and when that happens I trust to have a camera handy."

The "phenomenon" gained national attention in 1958 when huge tracks were found around several road construction sites in Northern California and Jerry Crew cast one. The term "Bigfoot" was born.


One clear clue of a belief system: evidence and logic that objectively sheds doubt on the existence of bigfoot is instead seized upon by believers as evidence for that very existence. If you point out that the stories of bigfoot encounters resemble in every detail the narratives of the centuries-old "green-man" in England, for example, you will be told that, see, Sasquatch lived in England, too. Suggest the "verified" footprint looks exactly like a fake foot presented by the hoaxer, bigfooters will tell you the hoaxer must have carefully modeled real Sasquatch footprints. Can't be tracked by dogs? See how terrifying and clever?, despite the fact that no one has ever been been verifiably attacked or killed by one of these monsters, and that people routinely hunt bears with dogs, surely no less dangerous or woodcrafty.

It would be nice if you'd get your facts straight before you start generalizing about what "believers" do. You may be unaware that all the major hoaxes have been exposed by the "believers", not the "sceptics".

There are in fact no "verified" footprints that are matched by fake feet, but scoftics will tell you Wallace, who was dead when these revelations were made and couldn't be questioned, must've had some other fake feet. Never mind the ones he did have were on public view at his souvenier shop for years. And they do not account for the many thousands of trackways that have been discovered over decades in several states and provinces in Canada.

There have been efforts to track them with dogs. Accounts of aggressive individuals seem to be from the Eastern U.S.. Some think the eastern variety is a subspecies. There's a compelling cast from Elkins Creek, Ga., but the "best" evidence all comes from the Pacific Northwest.

Every discrepancy will elicit an answer, no matter how unlikely, since this is not a negotiation of reason, but a matter of faith. The most jaw-dropping disconnect, to me, is the dual assertion that Bigfoot is a secretive, shy, and crafty creature of the deepest forests of the PNW that also, amazingly, aggressively and promiscuously haunts such wildernesses as Iowa and Connecticut, and can be easily lured (just out of camera range) by the simplest ruses. It's both vanishingly rare and ubiquitous as a coyote. Obviously, not every bigfoot believer can live in the apparent Holy Land of Ore-Wash-BC, but that doesn't mean they can't thrill to their own local piece of the action; just as Jesus came to Glastonbury, thus we have sasquatch hunters in probably every state of the union. As the Chupacabra stories spread north (and bigfooters may want to add wings to Sasquatch if they want to keep up in the mystery creature arms race), one imagines new tensions between rival camps: did the horrible screeches and glowing eyes in the dark come from Bigfoot, or Chupa? And can they mate?


Where are you getting this stuff?

So how does this relate to the Patterson film? As others have mentioned, to most of the world, this few seconds of film


It's almost a minute long.

with dubious authors, origins, and provenances looks exactly like a guy in a suit. It did to me, disappointingly, when I first saw it as a kid who was firmly convinced of Bigfoot's existence at the time. But to believers, it's scrutinized, parsed, discussed, and held as up as the best evidence for their faith; questioning its legitimacy strikes at the very core of belief, despite the fact that many Bigfoot witnesses describe a different appearance, and despite that in the intervening 40 years nothing similar has been produced. One would think the fact that the original film is mysteriously unavailable, held back for obvious financial reasons, would be enough for most believers to either toss it as fraudulent or clamor for its release, but that's not generally the case. And the answer why not is fairly clear, again having to do with belief. No one likes their pet belief system kicked over; a bit of comfortable ignorance is infinitely preferable to the disturbing effects of doubt.


The original may have been lost by Al De Atley, Roger Patterson's brother-in-law. I've read recently it isn't lost and is indeed safe, but I can't substantiate that. The original was thoroughly examined and shown before it disappeared, and there are several first generation copies still around. The rights were tied up for years because Roger oversold them. Dahinden spent quite a bit of money straightening things out. The rights are now owned by Roger's widow.

To most who have "scrutinized, parsed, discussed" it, it does not appear to be a man in a suit at all. The sceptical argument seems to go no farther than "looks like a man in a suit to me", possibly because no evidence that it is has ever come to light.

So all of the above is perfectly understandable, and really, no harm done. What I think is interesting is the confusion between the goal of many bigfooters and the results of that goal. Simply put, if Sasquatch was found, captured, or otherwise acceptably identified, which is as I understand it the general focus of most sasquatchery, what would the Bigfoot crowd do? The foundation of their faith would be destroyed, since the mystery would be over. Would they suddenly train as biologists or anthropologists to exploit the discovery? Is there a Otter Encounters website? Would they clamor for
protection for a creature that obviously doesn't need it, or hunting privileges for an animal that apparently can't be hunted?


Dr. Meldrum is already an anthropologist.

And of course the Patterson film would lose all value, except as a historical curiosity. Either it would shown to be a fake, or it would be validated but useless. I don't see organizations minutely dissecting shaky old films of distant bears.

It's a modern theological mistake, I think, to put faith in a mystery that has even the remote possibility of being solved. Most belief systems are conveniently and explicitly unverifiable; that's where the whole concept of faith gets its value. So as long as no Sasquatch is found, everything is fine; you've got the thrills of mystery, the haunting campfire tales, the
tantalizing glimpses of a secret world, even your sacred relics like the P-G film. But imagine the disastrous consequences if one were found, and faith becomes superfluous. Your birthright stolen by scientists! Every night bigfoot believers ( and most vehemently whoever owns the Patterson film rights) should be whispering for their hairy saint to be revealed, "but not tomorrow, Lord, not tomorrow."

Your arguments might be impressive if you appeared to know anything about this. Your very first paragraph states a false premise, but that won't stop the cheering section, will it?

If you want some really good psychobabble, read Daegling.
 
(In reference to the Skookum cast not being in a musuem)



Ah, bud, you might wanna check on that one. I'm pretty sure we discussed already in this thread that the holders of a number of casts are not allowing people to examine them. It's not a case of them trying to donate them to a museum and being turned down, but a case of them refusing to allow public viewing.

My memory, which may well be faulty, is that the Skookum cast was among these, and access to it has been very limited by the owners I could be wrong, mind you, and thinking of a different cast, but someone with this information at their fingertips might wish to weigh in.

Wrong on all counts. The Skookum Cast has been open for inspection by qualified people and their families from the beginning. Richard Noll was housing it in a private garage (his mother-in-law's, as I recall), hardly a place for public viewing. He and John Green worked on copies at a cost of several thousand dollars each. They may be on permanent display by now.

Dr. Meldrum's footprint cast collection at Idaho State is open for inspection.

The only people who were turned down that I know of, by Richard Noll, were Cliff Crook, who nevertheless proclaimed it the imprint of an elk and was cited by Dr. David Daegling in his book, and Benjamin Radford, who had accused Noll of "brainwashing" other individuals on the expedition into seeing what he saw. Radford complained greatly. There's a discussion with Noll's letter posted on BFF, which, hopefully will be back up soon. Viewings were limited to professionals and their guests; Radford was told he could view it along with the rest of the public. Dr. Daegling didn't come.
 
Feel free to provide evidence that those particular mammoths aren't forest dwellers, by all means! I don't think anybody--except you--has claimed that it's gospel yet. I'll happily listen to any evidence you have to the contrary about the habitat of those mammoth species mentioned.

And what forest-dwelling mammoth lived on the North American continent?

My point is that Pleistocene fossil beds in North America have remains of inhabitants of open grasslands. Remains of forest dwellers are poorly represented.

John Day yielded a 20-22 million year old primate tooth. There must have been many more. In years of intensive digs in Africa only three fossil Chimpanzee teeth have been found and they weren't in the "right" environment for Chimpanzees.

I've read there are a thousand living species not represented in the fossil record.

Gigantopithecus blacki and a subspecies are, but the first tooth was spotted in a Chinese apothecary shop, not on a dig.

Some reasons for thinking a descendant or variety or subspecies of Giganto may inhabit North America:

A Species Named From Footprints
Grover S. Krantz

A reconstruction is presented of the living appearance of the fossil species Gigantopithecus blacki; this is then compared with evidence for a reported wild animal in North America. These two forms are provisionally equated, thus giving a formal name to the living animal known as sasquatch, or bigfoot. Alternative taxonomic designations are also suggested in view of the possibility that future discoveries might show this equation to be incorrect.

Gigantopithecus blacki was named by von Koenigswald in 1935 from a giant primate tooth he found in a Chinese drugstore. Weidenreich (1945) described several teeth in detail, and he decided they snowed hominid (human) rather than pongid (ape) affinities. They were attributed to "Middle Pleistocene" deposits from southern China on the basis of adhering matrix. A date of about a half a million years ago was suggested at that time.

Subsequent discoveries now include the tooth-bearing parts of three mandibles and perhaps a thousand additional loose teeth (Woo 1962). Another similar mandible was recovered in India that has been named G. bilaspurensis (Simons and Ettel 1970). Most opinions would now give the Chinese fossils an antiquity of at least a million years, and the Indian specimen several times that.

Anatomically, G. blacki is a higher primate of the hominoid superfamily of man and apes. Its dentition is substantially more humanlike than that found in any living ape. The incisors are greatly reduced and vertically implanted; the canines are somewhat reduced and tend to grind down with use. The lower anterior premolars are basically bicuspid, though the labial cusp is much the larger and spreads considerably toward the base; it is slightly rotated and can accurately be called semisectorial. The molars are high-crowned, have thick enamel, and their cusp and fissure pattern is distinctly hominid. In total, the dentition is intermediate, but leans a bit more to the human than to the ape side — much as that of the recently discovered Australopithecus afarensis, but not in exactly the same ways. It is clearly more hominid-looking than the briefly famous "Ramapithecus."

All living hominoids are giant brachiators, or at least have the adaptations for this arm-swinging type of locomotion. It is a reasonable presumption, though not a demonstrated fact, that G. blacki also has these same adaptations. Important among these are conspicuously wide shoulders, with long arms oriented laterally rather than ventrally. This also includes a broader-than-deep chest, with the rib cage closely approximating the pelvis. The external tail is missing as well, its base being tucked under to help support the viscera. Gigantopithecus is large, as the name implies. The mandible of the adult male specimen from China is half again larger than a male gorilla in most lineal dimensions, and over twice as thick. If one mentally completes this mandible, fills in a corresponding maxilla, and adds the necessary muscle-supporting structures for chewing, then a head of phenomenal size results. A normal body weight twice that of the male gorilla would be required just to support this head in a reasonable manner. About 350 kg would be the probable body weight. The smaller female jaw from China suggests a body of something like 250 kg, as it also exceeds the male gorilla in all measurements.

Ratios of jaw size to body size vary somewhat among living and fossil primates but with those of a given morphological design the ratio is more regular. Gigantopithecus does not show the extreme molarized design of the australopithecines, so its jaw would not be as relatively oversized. In fact, a reconstruction of its head and neck, at 40 kg, involves as much mass as the entire body of some australopithecines.

Gigantopithecus jaws are exceptionally broad in the back; the horizontal rami diverge toward the rear to a degree unmatched by any other primate. The dentition diverges to the rear in a corresponding manner, in part resulting from the much reduced incisors. But the jaw spread is the major causative factor here, the divergence of the molar rows being much less impressive than that of the body of the jaw itself. This posterior breadth would mean that the mandibular condyles were also widely spaced on the base of the skull. This spacing would alter the direction of swing of the jaw in each one-sided chewing action, and in turn would render the sectorial complex ineffective. The semisectorial character of the premolar is thus consistent with the jaw design.

The most obvious reason why the jaw should spread in this manner is because the neck must have been situated somewhat between, rather than behind, the ascending rami. Thus we may conclude that the head was habitually placed atop a vertical neck rather than being hung forward from a sloping neck. This in turn implies that the entire body was normally held in an erect position, and they were necessarily bipedal. They would have stood and walked in an essentially human manner.

That the jaw diverges even more than in humans is the allometric result of relatively more massive neck musculature in this absolutely larger body. The high weight-to-strength ratio would also call for a very heavyset body build in general. Given a weight of 350 kg and a strongly lateral body build, a stature of about 2.5 m can be predicted.

No tools or habitation sites are known for G. blacki. They existed within the time range of Homo erectus, which was a tool-using, hunting, early form of hominid. It is not likely that two culture-bearing species could have coexisted, so we may safely presume that G. blacki was not human in any intellectual sense of the word.

The lack of hunting would also mean they would not have reduced their body hair as part of the human sweat-cooling adaptation; they would be hair covered just like other primates. Their brains would be a little larger than in living apes, perhaps 600 cc. Allometry would suggest this added 100 cc over the gorilla because of their body size. Combining this with much larger facial bones and jaw musculature would give them apelike faces with tall sagittal crests in both sexes. The small incisors would somewhat reduce their prognathism. The face would project far down, and the shoulders should rise higher than the level of the mouth. No visible constriction at the neck should be expected.

Dentition and ecological logic both point to an omnivorous diet, predominantly vegetarian. They may have been opportunistic carnivores, but no special abilities in this direction are indicated. They would not have had exceptional speed or endurance, nor would they have the fangs or claws of the usual carnivores.

The picture of an adult male Gigantopithecus may be summarized from these data and deductions. It was an erect, bipedal primate with the wide shoulders and strong arms of an ex-brachiator. Its body would be ape/human-like in its broad chest, short waist, and lack of external tail. It would weigh about 350 kg (800 lbs.) and stand perhaps 2.5 m (8 ft.) tall, on legs and feet of roughly human proportions and stout design. It would be covered with normal primate hair and have a gorilla-like face. Its intelligence should be in the general area of the living apes, with no cultural capacity or language. The female would be smaller, at 250 kg and 2 m, but otherwise the same.

An animal exactly fitting this description is often reported as seen in North America. (Similar reports from other continents are not dealt with here.) Considerable evidence has been collected to support the existence of this sasquatch, but none of it has been definitive in the eyes of most zoologists and anthropologists. Footprints have been observed, photographed, and cast by the hundreds. Eyewitness accounts on record number a thousand or more; and most sightings are probably not reported. At least one film has survived the usual debunking claims in good order. Hair samples and feces have been collected, and sometimes analyzed, with uncertain results. Native American legends and folklore often include creatures that seem similar (Green 1978).

This impressive array of evidence is badly weakened by the fact that much of it has been shown to be in error, faked, or at least highly suspect. Some eyewitnesses saw standing bears, men at a distance, or oddly shaped tree trunks; other have invented their accounts for personal publicity. Many footprints were faked with carved wooden feet. At least some of the claimed films of sasquatches are demonstratable fakes. Most of the hair and fecal samples were from known animal species, and the rest remain simply unidentified. Indian legends also include many other creatures that are no more real than angels or unicorns.

That the sasquatch could be real, is not sufficient argument to say that it is real. Definitive evidence must be used to support it that is not subject to hoaxing or misinterpretation. Such evidence is currently available in the form of three footprint casts that show dermal ridges and sweat pores on large areas on the sole of the foot and toes. Silicon rubber molds have been made of these, and exact copies can be produced for further study. The original casts are in my possession.

Expert opinion on these track casts is sharply divided. Most anthropologists and zoologists have summarily dismissed them as fakes. They all agree that real primate skin is represented, but claim that this was somehow transferred from known animals to these out-sized footprints. Most dermatoglyphic experts have declared them to be genuine, and incapable of being faked by any means (Krantz 1983; Berry and Haylock 1985).

The biologists were all on record as denying the existence of tins supposed animal — if not explicitly, at least implicitly by failure to include it in their lists of living primates. The policemen have made no such pronouncements; the animal's possible existence was of no professional interest to them. If anything, they were more concerned about the possibility of someone having discovered a technique that could be used for faking fingerprints.

The formal description of new species requires a type specimen. Such a specimen may consist of several parts of the same individual, such as various bones of one skeleton. In this case, the type specimen may consist of three foot impressions of one individual. The circumstances of discovery preclude the possibility that more than one individual is involved.

We need not be concerned that footprints are not the actual remains of the animal itself. Natural casts of bones and shells are routinely used in describing fossil species. In such cases no remains of the animal are directly involved. Rather, we record the physical impact that a part of the animal once made on its environment. Nonskeletal impressions of hair, scales, and feathers are also found in fossil form; impressions of dermal ridges should be equally valid.

The main logical distinction in the case at hand would appear to be the recency of the impressions. Fossil feather impressions, or even dinosaur tracks, normally have an antiquity measured in tens of millions of years or more. In this instance the footprints were about two hours old at the time of their permanent documentation. I fail to see a good reason why this should make any difference in their acceptability. Obviously it would be desirable to have actual remains of the body, but this desire applies equally to many fossil species as well. Whether the species is recent or ancient, we name it from the best material evidence that is available.

Such a type specimen of the North American sasquatch, or bigfoot, would consist of the three footprints of one individual that were cast on 16 June 1982. These footprints were found by U.S. Forest Service employee Paul Freeman within the Umatilla National Forest, in the Blue Mountains of southeastern Washington state, at a locality known as Elk Wallow. The circumstances of their discovery were recounted in the Newsletter of the International Society of Cryptozoology (1982a, 1982b). A description of the track casts themselves was subsequently published (Krantz 1983). The authenticity of these tracks has also been questioned (Dahinden 1984) and answered (Krantz 1984).

The sasquatch tracks indicate a foot of hominid design, the first toe is not opposed. It is probably too long (38 cm) and definitely too wide (17 cm) to be of Homo sapiens origin. The partial pattern of dermal ridges was of a generalized higher primate design. No recognized living species fits this description. Gigantopithecus blacki, as described above, would necessarily have left footprints of just this kind; while the maker of the Elk Wallow tracks must have had a gigantic, bipedal, primate body. That these modern track makers have reportedly been seen and described allows us to assign some additional traits to them.

The reconstructed appearance of G. blacki and the description of the sasquatch are identical in all respects where they deal with the same features. This is true even if we limit our sasquatch data to the "type" footprints. These features are both numerous and distinctive enough that the possibility of two gigantic, bipedal, higher primate species can be considered very unlikely. In spite of this close correspondence, the normal procedure for naming the sasquatch would be to assign it new generic and trivial names. And the normal sequence of events would then be to sink these names as it becomes evident that the sasquatch is indeed G. blacki.

Rather than follow this time-honored procedure, I wish to reverse the sequence of taxonomic events here. Its equation with the known fossil form is proposed, then suggestions are made to upgrade its level of taxonomic distinction if and when new data should warrant this. It is realized that such upgradings as given here cannot be taken as official names, but it is hoped that they will be considered if and when the time comes.

The three footprints discussed above are hereby referred to the known species Gigantopithecus blacki, thus making it pointless to label them as the "type" specimen. Any and all other data relating to the animal commonly known as the North American sasquatch or bigfoot is similarly referred to this species. This genus is also treated as belonging to the family Hominidae on the basis of erect bipedal locomotion. This last point is in agreement with Weidenreich (1945), Woo (1962), Robinson (1972), Eckhart (1972), and Prayer (1974). It should also be noted that the identification of sasquatch with Gigantopithecus was suggested by John Green in 1968.

Future events may alter this identification. A temporal separation of about a million years, and a geographic separation of a few thousand kilometers could well mean there is a species-worth of difference between these two animals. The tropical location of the fossils, as contrast with the temperate forest habitat of the living form, should have led to considerable differences in diet and climatic adaptation. As soon as there emerges a consensus that these contrasts merit a specific distinction, the sasquatch should be designated Gigantopithecus canadensis. This trivial name reflects the Nearctic distribution of most of the currently available reports of likely validity, as well as the location of the "type" footprints used here.

The future recovery of osteological remains of the sasquatch might also affect even its generic assignment. For example, gnathic parts might include much reduced canines and fully bicuspid lower anterior premolars. This would almost certainly refer the sasquatch to the other known fossil hominid genus, Australopithecus. Given at least the same temporal and geographic distinction as from Gigantopithecus, and especially with an additional size contrast, a new species certainly would be warranted. In this eventuality it should be known as Australopithecus canadensis.

The future discovery of postcranial remains of the Asian G. blacki might show that our presumption of erect bipedalism for the fossil form was incorrect. It is at least remotely possible that G. blacki may someday prove to have been a terrestrial quadruped, maybe a knuckle walker like the recent African apes. Such a locomotor contrast with the known bipedalism of sasquatch would require a generic distinction. Assuming in this scenario no reason to link sasquatch with Australopithecus, we would then have to create a new genus for it. For this eventuality I propose Gigantanthropus, with the same trivial name of canadensis. The "anthropus" would fit well with its continued inclusion in Hominidae. The "pithecus& ending of Gigantopithecus would become more appropriate, as these fossils would then have to be moved into the Pongidae. (The generic name of "Gigantanthropus" was proposed by Weidenreich in 1945 as being more accurately descriptive of the fossil form, but priority ruled out this usage, and the name is still available.)

The desirability of recovering more physical remains of this species is self-evident, both for the fossil and the living forms. Better evidence is needed for all cryptozoological species, by definition, otherwise they would not have been classed as "hidden" animals. Any and all efforts in this direction should be encouraged. However, I think it is equally important that serious scientific investigation be made of the existing evidence for the sasquatch. The fact that much of this evidence has been fabricated and/or misinterpreted should not rule out such studies. False leads have often hampered science, and they continually plague criminal investigations as well. We have well-established procedures for separating fact from fiction; they need only be applied in an open-minded manner to the subject at hand.

We cannot rule out the possibility, however remote it may be, that our "type" specimen of the sasquatch was somehow fabricated. By exercising the same degree of caution we might also be reluctant to accept many fossil species that have been described from no better evidence, I think it is more prudent to proceed on the assumption that the existence of the sasquatch is at least a reasonable possibility and to give it a formal scientific name. This should serve to structure further inquiry into this matter along sober lines, and to discredit some of the unfounded speculation.

From: Big Footprints; A Scientific Inquiry Into the Reality of Sasquatch (Grover S. Krantz, 1992, Boulder, CO: Johnson Books)



References Cited

Berry, John and S. Haylock
1985, The Sasquatch Foot Casts. Fingerprint Whorld, 10(39):59-63.

Dahinden, René
1984, Whose Dermal Ridges? Cryptozoology, 3:128-131.

Eckhardt, R. B.
1972, Population Genetics and Human Origins. Scientific American 226(l):94-103.

Frayer, W. D.
1974, A Reappraisal of Ramapithecus. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 18:19-30.

Green, John
1968, On the Track of the Sasquatch. Agassiz, B.C.: Cheam.
1978, Sasquatch, The Apes Among Us. Seattle: Hancock House.

International Society of Cryptozoology
1982a Sasquatch in Washington State. Newsletter, l(2):7-9.
1982b. Walla Walla Casts Show Dermal Ridges. Newsletter, l(3):l-4.

Koenigswald, G. H. R. von
1935 Eine fossile Saurgetier - fauna mit Simia aus Sudchina. Proceedings, Koeniglich Akademie van wetenschappen 38:872-879.
Amsterdam.

Krantz, Grover S.
1981 The Process of Human Evolution. Cambridge, MA: Schenkman.
1983 Anatomy and Dermatoglyphics of Three Sasquatch Footprints. Cryptozoology, 2:53-81.
1984 Et Tu Rene? Cryptozoology, 3:131-134.

Robinson. J.T.
1982 Early Hominid Posture and Locomotion. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Simons, Elwyn and P.C. Ettel
1970 Gigantopithecus. Scientific American, 222(l):76-85.

Weidenreich, Franz
1945 Giant Early Man from Java and South China. Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History, 40:I-134
New York.

Woo Ju-kang (Wu Rukang)
1962 The Mandibles and Dentition of Gigantopithecus. Paleontologia Sinica, Whole Number 146, New Series D, No. II. Beijing.
 
The only people who were turned down that I know of, by Richard Noll, were Cliff Crook, who nevertheless proclaimed it the imprint of an elk...

Well gee Lu, that couldn't have had anything to do with finding elk hair in the cast, could it ? No sasquatch hair, no unknown primate hair , though ..


And yes we have matched Wallace feet to suposedly genuine Squatch tracks.

Even on St. Meldrum's web pages..

No, I won't dig the links up again..
 
Quit spamming Lu.

Posting entire articles is not exactly ' fair use '... If I were petty like you are about these things, I would alert admin..

Are you hoping all the clutter will obscure the facts..

A small excerpt and a link will do..
 
Not to mention that nowdays Gigantopithecus are seen as being relative to orang-utangs, that AFAIK are not hominiids...

So...
 
I have not changed my mind about anything. I believe I've written it several times:

I believe in the existence of sasquatch based on the available evidence.

Correa is fond of saying I said things I didn't say, Huntster. (I hate it when the quotes vanish.)

I'd like to know where I ever used an argument about Ape Caves. Fred Beck had his encounter near Ape Canyon; he claimed the animal he shot fell ito it. Green, in fact, looked for evidence they might utilize caves. There's nothing to indicate they do.

According to this article, Ape Caves were named for a Boy Scout Troop. The name has nothing to do with Sasquatches.

"Ape Cave was discovered accidentally by a logger who almost drove his tractor into it, and the cave owes its name to a local Boy Scout troop (the Mount St. Helens Apes) who were the first to explore the cave."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/120497/hike04.html

I posted a recent article on Giganto diet somewhere in these threads. There's little to indicate they were a specialized bamboo-eater.
 
Last edited:
Quit spamming Lu.


You need to look up the word "spamming". You've used it a couple of times in ways that indicate you don't know what it means.

Krantz is dead and I'm not reproducing it for profit.

Posting entire articles is not exactly ' fair use '... If I were petty like you are about these things, I would alert admin..

Petty? You broke a BFF rule. Evidently the administrators didn't think the violation was serious enough for disciplinary action. You were still posting on BFF last I saw.

Krantz is credited.

Are you hoping all the clutter will obscure the facts..

I was hoping someone might read the article.

A small excerpt and a link will do..

I've used the phrase "read Krantz" so many times people probably think it's my sig, but it seems no one ever reads him. I thought I'd help out the click challenged by posting the whole thing.

Small excerpt and link below:

"The "fair use" of a copyrighted work, including use for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

http://www.lib.auburn.edu/madd/copyright/fair_use.html

I was going to suggest you all read it prior to scoffing, but It didn't think that would do any good. You wouldn't consider addressing any of the points he makes, would you?
 
...This forum is able to confirm, examine and study Bigfooters like LAL and Huntster in ways that nobody can study Bigfoot....


And your conclusions?

I don't know about you, but I'm "obtuse" and have a "mental disorder". And I'm a "woo".

I don't know what credentials Parcher has that make him qualified to make a diagnosis, but he seems to be adept at making assumptions and resorting to insults. Some of the arguments he's come up with were rife with errors, but we did get some good discussion going for awhile.
 
And what forest-dwelling mammoth lived on the North American continent?

The Columbian mammoth was an adaptable little bugger with a habitat including both woodlands and grasslands.

The American Mastodon (Mammut Americanum) is believed to have lived in spruce forests and open spruce woodlands.

Ya want fries wi' dat?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom