Bigfoot - serious, not follies

[LAL]

I didn't say the woods are full of gorilla suit wearers. The guy in the article wasn't wearing a bear suit. He didn't have to. The hunter saw a bear anyway. If he'd been hoping for a sasquatch I suspect he'd have seen that instead, but the victim would have been luckier in that case since they're not in season.

I didn't say you did. No one was wearing a deer suit in the stories I related, either (they were deer hunters). I used to move to town during hunting season before I had the gate. The elk hunters took to supergluing the lock. Nice folks. My old home county is now a Sasquatch refuge. I think that's awesome.

Plane story:

"Wreckage of 1983 crash found
By PHILIP FEROLITO
YAKIMA HERALD-REPUBLIC

Skeletal remains of two people have been found near Satus Pass in the wreckage of a single-engine aircraft missing for 22 years.

Workers installing telecommunication equipment in the closed section of the Yakama reservation Tuesday discovered the downed 1959 Bellenca in the remote and heavily forested area about 15 miles north of Goldendale, tribal officials said.

The wreckage was found amid trees. One body was found crouched inside the plane, while parts of a leg believed to have belonged to another person were found outside the aircraft, said Yakama Tribal Council Chairman Louis Cloud.

Scavengers, such as coyotes, may have carried off the rest of the remains, he said.

The plane left a wreckage path of about 200 feet, said Tom Little, an air safety investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board in Seattle.

"It didn't hit the side of the mountain or anything," he said. "It looked like it hit some trees."

The plane, which was headed for Long Beach, Calif., went missing on Jan. 8, 1983, after leaving the Yakima airport, said Little, citing NTSB records.

The Yakima tower warned of icy conditions and turbulence after the plane departed at 11:49 a.m., and it probably went down about 12:30 p.m., he said.

Crews searched for the downed aircraft until Jan. 15, 1983, Little said.

Identities of the pilot or any possible passengers were not confirmed Thursday evening, he said. But newspaper accounts from Jan. 12 of that same year reported that a search was under way for Max Schaffer, 59, and Eugene Goodrow, 54.

The two men, whose addresses were not listed, had left Winthrop Inter-City Airport en route to Long Beach, Calif., after dropping off Goodrow's son, Tony, in Winthrop, Wash. News reports said they had stopped at the Yakima airport for fuel before resuming their flight.

Klickitat County Coroner Tim O'Neill is waiting for tribal permission to enter the closed section of the reservation to identify the remains, though that may not happen until next week, he said.

"We're set to go," he said. "We'll have people ready to go."

O'Neill said he was told the site is in an remote area that can't be seen from the sky.

The incident is being investigated by the Federal Aviation Administration, Cloud said."

That area's pretty open compared to the Western slope. The plot is visited only once every ten years. The plane was missed twice before by crews.

The woods aren't overrun with berry pickers, either.

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

You'll notice they actually found the plane, only one plane in a huge area of forest but it did eventually show up a few years later. They weren't even looking for it, but there it was. Several thousand 3-metre tall apes spread across the area for what must have been thousands of years, that's another matter entirely.

They found the Ceolocanth, a fish no one had seen in about 300,000,000 years and no one had any idea existed, but they found it. They weren't looking for it, but there it was. Now we know they're in several areas of ocean living far beyond the reach of the sun in small numbers where humans have practically never ventured, yet they were found.

And here we have Lal, dedicated to the religion that is Bigfoot, despite nothing having been found to show they ever existed at all, and to this day is treated as a fairy story by the sane amongst us. "You cant prove it doesn't exist" is the mantra of this religion, and verbage of massive proportions is it's succour.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee Lal, when someone finds one you can go looking for more but right now all it is is an invention of the mind. All the searches fail, all the traps and cameras find nothing, all the films are bogus and many of the tracks are found by hoaxers and people who believe in the religion. Yet you continue to believe, and belief is all you have and probably all you ever will have.

 

[RayG]

So gorilla suit wearers commonly roam the woods scaring the witnesses huh? They do so at their peril.

It appears no gorilla suits are required, people will believe they saw what they think they saw. In this case, the shooter thought he saw a bear. How could he make such an obvious mistake?

Lost plane found in the Cascades....only missing since 1983.

I'm not sure I see the connection. Were hunters shooting at planes?

RayG

 

[RayG]

Why don't you check the facts before you make erroneous assumptions like that?

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/ThermalExpedMain.htm

Here's some other facts from that expedition:

• Not a single clear track was found or cast
• Not a single glimpse of a squatch
• Not a single bit of proof squatch was in the area
• After some creative interpretation, an indent in the ground was assumed to have been caused by a squatch

I have to add, with all the suspicions about Matt Moneymaker and the way he runs the BFRO, any 'evidence' obtained with him in the area seems suspect.

RayG

 

[RayG]

I really wonder why you know so little about this. Marx had done no hoaxing at the time and certainly didn't have a "widespread reputation for fraud". Dahinden was extremely wary of hoaxes and took a few days to consider before he went to Bossburg. He noted a jeep near the trackway and noted the license number and later questioned the occupants. (They'd seen the trackway and said they "got the hell out of there".) He openly disliked Dr. Krantz, or at least his PhD, but never challenged him on the Bossburg tracks. Marx faked films. There's nothing to indicate he faked any tracks.

Tracks like that were seen twenty years earlier and six years later. The condition was consistant with metatarsus adductus.

You've heard of a strawman argument, haven't you?

Krantz seems to be the only researcher who accepted the Bossburg prints at face value. In fact, after examining nothing more than a single footprint and a pair of casts, he was able to determine the bone structure of an undiscovered animal. He assumed the tracks couldn't be hoaxed because he didn't think he could be fooled.

Why were Green and Dahinden not fully convinced the tracks were valid?

RayG

 

[RayG]

Have you read Coleman's board? It's worth joining just to see the posts on the 4th.

No. Is that a Yahoo mailing list or an actual webforum like here?

RayG

 

[LTC8K6]

A 400' waterfall gets missed by the officials and even local residents

That is a lie, Lu. The waterfall wasn't missing at all. It was on maps for crying out loud. You can keep repeating that lie all you want, but it won't alter reality.

I guess Hawaii was missing until someone "found" it. The Mississippi was missing too, I suppose......

They only searched for the plane for 7 days, Lu. No wonder they didn't find it. How long has the search for bigfoot been going on?

A missing plane doesn't leave tracks all over the place. A missing plane doesn't sit down right next to you. A missing plane doesn't throw rocks at you. A missing plane doesn't eat your bait. A missing plane doesn't pose for your camera and then sashay into the woods so you can follow it.

The BFRO is not a reliable source for factual info, imo. The tale of the Skookum cast should put anyone with an open mind in a suspicious mood. Developments of late with the BFRO should end any doubt and make the suspicion permanent.

The BFRO is dead as far as anyone ever taking it seriously again.

It is a good place to point out inconsistencies though.

Hopefully the members that left will retrieve any intellectual property from the BFRO that they have contributed.

 

[LTC8K6]

Let's just examine the 2 accounts of day seven published by the BFRO and see if we find any significant differences.

http://www.bfro.net/news/bodycast/expedition_details.asp

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayseven.htm

 

[RayG]

I think he wanted a list with titles and dates of publication.

I know that's what he wanted, but no sources are given for either page, so why only complain about the one? I can think of four reasons (there may be more):

• He was too lazy to try and find them (they are there, just on another page)
• He was ignorant of the internet, webpages, and links, yet informed enough to leave feedback (seems unlikely)
• The sources were posted to the website after he made his complaint (which still doesn't explain why only one side of the argument was targeted)
• He was quite aware the sources were listed elsewhere, but was biased in favor of bigfoot (make it look like the other side of the argument doesn't play fair)

The against list would be relatively short. Other than Daegling and Long who's written books from the sceptical side?

Which is all the more amazing that no one has complained about the lack of sources on the other page. What, you only have to provide sources if you disagree with something?

Besides, if you read with an objective mind, you'll find lots of things to be skeptical about, regardless if it's written by a 'skeptic' or not. (Like on the BFRO website.)

RayG

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The point, in case you missed it, was that it wasn't found in dense forest, despite an extensive search in 1983, and continued to be lost until now. A 400' waterfall gets missed by the officials and even local residents, but it's supposed to be easy to get clear shots of an elusive, nocturnal forest-dwelling hominid. You guys crack me up.

And my point, which you obviously missed, is that while yes, things do go missing in the woods, we can actually show that some of them existed before they disappeared..


Besides, the impenatrable PNW is a pretty lame excuse for not producing a Bigfoot.. I refer to this post on BFF that you seemed to be impressed with..

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11553&st=120&#entry259658

Finally, on the idea that we need these weeks-to-months long expeditions in the field to find sasquatch because they only occur in these rugged, remote wilderness areas, blah, blah . . . I say hogwash. Check out the BFRO's database on sightings by region - you'll find multiple reports from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, New York, Maryland, New Jersey, Delaware, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island - Rhode $%^&^! Island - expeditions to the remotest parts of these states would not take weeks, yet sasquatch is apparently alive and well here. So either the squatch isn't nearly as dependent on unbroken wilderness as we like to think, or these reports are bogus. And if these reports are bogus, why should we put any stock in any of the others posted on a site like the BFRO?

Personally, I go with bogus, but if you don't, then you need to cut the crap about the PNW...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I really need to read your posts more carefully.. There is so much to learn.

Did you really keep a straight face while you posted this..

The plane, which was headed for Long Beach, Calif., went missing on Jan. 8, 1983, after leaving the Yakima airport, said Little, citing NTSB records.

The Yakima tower warned of icy conditions and turbulence after the plane departed at 11:49 a.m., and it probably went down about 12:30 p.m., he said.

Crews searched for the downed aircraft until Jan. 15, 1983, Little said.

They searched for Seven whole days!!! ?


How long have we been waiting for Bigfoot Lu ?





Edit: Oops.. I see LTC8K6 commented on this first.. It seems worth repeating...

 

[RayG]

I didn't say you did.

LAL, you implied it when you said:

Originally posted by LAL
So gorilla suit wearers commonly roam the woods scaring the witnesses huh?

In his original post, bruto made no mention of the man wearing a bear or gorilla suit. I'm not sure I see the relationship between someone being mistaken for a bear, and someone dressing up as a gorilla. It appears you've engaged in a straw man fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

With regards to the plane you keep bringing up...

How long was the search for the plane conducted? Has it been an ongoing search since 1983? It looks and sounds like the plane was only discovered by accident, not because of an intensive search. Keep in mind, it only took 22 years, far less than the time it's taken to accidently discover bigfoot.

I've had an interest in bigfoot over the past 30 years or so, and there have been a number of major advances in technology over those past 30 years. Portable computers, cell phones with digital imaging, infrared scopes and cameras, satellite imaging, lights and cameras that utilize motion detection, etc. etc. yet we're no closer to proving bigfoot exists. That's rather disappointing.

RayG

 

[LTC8K6]

Straw man is sort of what footers keep doing with the fake feet.

Comparing one fake foot that obviously doesn't match and isn't the one the skeptics are talking about anyway.

 

[Correa Neto]

Ultrasound? You mean infrared? Bipto speculated about that in an interview with Green. I don't know that anyone's accepting that as fact. What about other nocturnal animals? Can any of them sense, or even see, infrared?

Something has tampered with cameras at times; I don't know about destroyed.

Speculations, speculations, speculations. Just baseless speculations.

Some animals, as you probably know, even if non-nocturnal can "sense" infrared. Some snakes, for example. Nocturnal or semi-nocturnal mammals, however, as far as I can remember, do not rely on IR. Their eyes are adapted to gather more light than those of our species, for example. That´s why we see those eerie light reflexes inside lions´and wolve´s eyes, for example.

And the something that tampered with the cameras... It had to be a bigfoot?

It's amazing what a team of conservationists and scientists can accomplish just since 2001 with a known species in open terrain, isn't it? Maybe they'd like to help out over here.

Sure. Iran must be a place much easier to work than USA. Logistics at Iran´s remote areas are for sure excellent.

You got the picture LAL? That´s 60 specimens across the whole Asia. And they were photographed. Meanwhile in North America...

Why the "teams of conservationists and scientists" working in North America´s wildernesses, never have provided evidence for the estimated 2000 to 14000 bigfeet that are supposed to live in the woods? Because they are not looking for bigfeet? No. Wrong answer... Because there are too few people working in North America´s wildernesses? No. Wrong answer... Because they are incompetent? No. Wrong answer... Because maybe bigfeet are not real?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Funny Bigfoot report for the day..

This is a news article with various anecdotes..

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_article.asp?id=449

My favorite.. ( so far )

Humphreys’ encounter was documented by the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization, which sent investigators to interview Humphreys and set up a surveillance at his home. Investigators learned the shooting culminated two years of alleged terror by “at least one Bigfoot,” which had been prowling his property at night.

Two years!

Still no pics, no video no hair no DNA ... But they did find a dead deer.


The details of the investigative report are not available..

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=1506

Even though the FBI supposedly collected blood samples.

 

[Thurkon]

I really wonder why you know so little about this. Marx had done no hoaxing at the time...

That you know of.

But he has been shown since to be the type of person to pull a Bigfoot hoax.

But not that time, right?

Right.

 

[Thurkon]

Support for members of the BFRO and the work they've done does not=support for Matt Moneymaker.

Yeah...and support for Scientology does not = support for L. Ron Hubbard.

Right?

Right.

 

[Thurkon]

The point, in case you missed it, was that it wasn't found in dense forest, despite an extensive search in 1983, and continued to be lost until now. A 400' waterfall gets missed by the officials and even local residents, but it's supposed to be easy to get clear shots of an elusive, nocturnal forest-dwelling hominid. You guys crack me up.

So there's just one Bigfoot?

Come on, Lu...use that noodle.

There's supposed to be 2000 to 6000 of these buggers running around everywhere from the Pacific Northwest to rural Georgia to the freakin' Jersey Pine Barrens.

So where's the Foot?

 

[William Parcher]

True believers are only asking that the world accept that the evidence shows Bigfoot is real. The skeptical or true disbelievers are only asking that the world produce physical evidence that Bigfoot is real.

It is a merry-go-round that is as constant as the rotation of the planet. Only a real confirmation can stop this eternal carnival ride.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

True believers are only asking that the world accept that the evidence shows Bigfoot is real. The skeptical or true disbelievers are only asking that the world produce physical evidence that Bigfoot is real.

It is a merry-go-round that is as constant as the rotation of the planet. Only a real confirmation can stop this eternal carnival ride.

If there was going to be confirmation, we would have it by now..

I'm not trying to get anyone to give up their belief.. I'm just having fun showing them why their evidence is not evidence.