Bigfoot - serious, not follies

So Lu, do you have any plans concerning your participation in this forum?

The 3 Bigfoot threads here now total over 2040 postings. That is mostly because of you. Yet, Bigfoot is now no more real than if there were not a single thread on the topic. Are you running a tribute to Krantz. That man wrote many hundreds of pages on Bigfoot. You are running many hundreds of postings. Do you possibly think that quantity of words and references to Bigfoot could serve as some sort of surrogate for the animal itself?

Will you eventually move on to another forum to proselytize Bigfoot, or stay here to slog out another 1000 posts? Do you feel that you are on a kind of righteous misson?

From one atheist to another, does this seem to you like it is coming from within your "soul"?
 
I just noticed that on Bigfoot Forums (BFF), LAL has a total of 599 postings. Here on JREF, she has 851 posts. Lu, is this forum more compelling for discussion than being among the "true believers"? You have blitzed messages here, but have said comparatively little among the brethren. Is it because hardly anyone over there argues against Bigfoot?

RayG, you have 2066 postings over there on BFF. I guess Bigfoot deserves lots of talkin' on that forum.

Ray, it's obvious that Lu is convinced that Bigfoot exists. What are your feelings about the gigantic, smelly, North American bipedal ape?
 
"The first thing you learn about Bigfoot is that they have big feet. I drew in the bones so that you would know where the bones are that I drew in. Those are the bones." Dr. Grover Krantz PhD

krantz.jpg




"Look, I wasn't kidding when I said they have big feet. This is a Bigfoot big foot. We call this individual Raggedfoot. A Bigfoot colleague suggested that the injuries may have been caused by a scuffle with a member of a remnant population of saber-toothed cat. Because I am a scientist, I replied that only further research and measurement could decide on the factuality of that claim." Dr. Grover Krantz PhD

10_Krantz_FP.jpg





Here Dr. Grover Krantz PhD demonstrates the so-called 'Patty Walk' shown in the Patterson-Gimlin film. "Notice the bottom of my foot sticking up like this. Patty stuck her foot up when she stuck her foot up. Bigfoot does this and humans don't. Some may call this a 'Grouchopliant Python Walk'. You can also see that I can't make myself look like Bigfoot no matter how much I try. If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. If the walk doesn't work, any scoftic must be a jerk."

"Woo!" Chimpanzee (a primate known to science).

"Woo!" Dr. Jane Goodall PhD (a primate known to science).

photo4.jpg
 
William Parcher said:
Is it because hardly anyone over there argues against Bigfoot?

Not at all. There are a bunch of folks that take a skeptical approach. I believe I'm one of them. Do I come out and say squatch is impossible? No, but I don't believe the evidence is strong enough for anything more than further investigation. If you actually read some of my posts (ok, a lot of my posts) you'll certainly see a skeptical spin to them. It's no secret. In fact, if you look at the thread on critical thinking over there, you'll see I contributed the majority of posts/material/sources.

RayG, you have 2066 postings over there on BFF. I guess Bigfoot deserves lots of talkin' on that forum.

I find it an interesting subject and have had that interest for almost 30 years.

I'm also one of the few BFF board members that seem to be unimpressed with the Skookum cast. I don't believe it to be hoaxed, but I don't see any evidence that it was created by a bigfoot either.

I have been highly critical of the BFRO, in numerous posts, regarding the so-called 'scientific' manner in which they research the subject. No researcher or group is sacred, and I think my posts reflect that.

I have argued against polygraphs, dowsing, talking apes, the reliability of eyewitnesses, IM indexes of the Patterson subject, Fahrenbach hair determinations, and a host of other subjects/topics.

I like to think I've posted in a reasonable manner both there and here.

Ray, it's obvious that Lu is convinced that Bigfoot exists. What are your feelings about the gigantic, smelly, North American bipedal ape?

I don't 'believe' in bigfoot per se, but I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility that bigfoot exists. You also won't see me proclaiming it exists based on the evidence to date.

Oh, and I've said a few times that IF bigfoot exists, it's no more paranormal than my cat.

RayG
 
I have this funny feeling that all cats are somewhat paranormal. At least they treat you like a lodger in your own home, and I find that slightly freaky.

Anyway, I have to say I agree completely with RayG. Come up with some solid evidence and we'll be convinced, keep ranting on and making stuff up and you impress no one. For all we know there may be some form of fauna that explains the bigfoot phenomenon, but since it's highly unlikely and all the real evidence is against it then we have to take what believers say with a pinch of salt. The fact that they can actually be classed as 'believers' on the strength of such flimsy evidence says a lot about them.
 
Chimpanzee fossils found.

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050829/full/050829-10.html


Palaeontologists digging in the dusty wastelands of East Africa have discovered the first known chimpanzee fossil. The modest haul of just three teeth is the first hard evidence of the evolutionary path that led to today's chimpanzees.

As well as shedding light on chimps, the find throws up new questions about human evolution; it seems that chimpanzees may not have been physically separated from humans as was once thought.
 
Correa Neto said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4201180.stm

Estimated number of specimens- less than 60, across the whole Asia. And yet, caught by remote cameras in good sharp pictures.

Meanwhile, in North America, something between 1400 and 2000 3-m high apes elude cameras, traps, etc.

Oh, I forgot, the ultrassound stuff, they destroy cameras, etc.

:bs:
Only sixty of a particular species of cheetah left? Dang. I like cheetahs. Especially since, you know, they exist enough for us to get clear photos of them.
 
Thurkon said:
I like how the "experts" constantly quoted by Footers can't even agree about the solid "evidence" even amongst themselves.

Krantz is gullible? He doesn't research the stories people tell him? Yeah, I'll read Krantz. Sounds like a reliable guy.

Green was taken in by Marx's fake photos at first. He considers anything to do with Marx tainted, but the Bossburg tracks have held up as some of the best evidence despite Marx' antics.

It would be nice to know exactly which stories Krantz didn't research. In his book he concentrates on things like the casts, dermal ridges, sweat pores, and the Patterson film, with measurements and a method for calculating the weight.

Regarding stories, he says this on pg. 245:

"Media exposure also draws in many vague reports of no value, as well as contacts from the lunatic fringe that I can do without. I am becoming increasingly impatient with the nut cases. Years ago I listened patiently to a woman who told me about the twenty- foot tall man she saw with handsome, clean-shaven features. Later, when a young man told me that sasquatch visited him often and even sat on his bed, I told him he was imagining it. I said the same to the man who assured me that he saw a sasquatch driving a car. I was downright rude to the most recent caller who is experimenting contacting sasquatch spirits by 'channelling'. Another whole book could be written about the opinions and antics of the lunatic fringe."

Does that sound like he was gullible? Or should he have researched stories such as those?

Yes, you should read him just to get an idea of what he was really like rather than just taking the word of someone seeking to discredit his research.
 
Correa Neto said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4201180.stm

Estimated number of specimens- less than 60, across the whole Asia. And yet, caught by remote cameras in good sharp pictures.

Meanwhile, in North America, something between 1400 and 2000 3-m high apes elude cameras, traps, etc.

Oh, I forgot, the ultrassound stuff, they destroy cameras, etc.

:bs:

Ultrasound? You mean infrared? Bipto speculated about that in an interview with Green. I don't know that anyone's accepting that as fact. What about other nocturnal animals? Can any of them sense, or even see, infrared?

Something has tampered with cameras at times; I don't know about destroyed.

It's amazing what a team of conservationists and scientists can accomplish just since 2001 with a known species in open terrain, isn't it? Maybe they'd like to help out over here.
 
LTC8K6 said:

LTC8K6 said:

Interesting. Thanks. Helps to have someone on a dig in fossil-bearing strata, doesn't it?

The statement can now be revised to "No gorilla fossils and only three chimpanzee teeth".

"Part of the problem, McBrearty explains, is that chimps tend to live in hot, wet jungle conditions that are not good for the preservation of remains. Humans, on the other hand, are thought to have lived for millennia on the savannah, where bones are less likely to rot."

And:

"McBrearty suspects that although there may have been more chimps living in the jungles of western Africa, there are probably more fossils in the dry eastern savannah. It's just that "no one was looking for them" she says."
 
Originally posted by LAL It's amazing what a team of conservationists and scientists can accomplish just since 2001 with a known species in open terrain, isn't it? Maybe they'd like to help out over here.
Dont you think they would, if they thought there was something there? If there was a very real possibility of an unknown and major species to be discovered then I'm quite sure you couldn't keep them away, but since all there is to go on is one rather fake looking film and a worldwide legend about bogeymen to keep kids from wandering off into the woods, well I wouldn't make any expensive travel plans either.

You are at some point going to have to face up to the fact that there in no hard evidence whatsoever for this creature you think inhabits forests and mountains worldwide in numbers that would make them hard to miss. Analyzing tracks and dodgy film to the n'th degree doesn't make it any more real, what it does it divert good people from worthwhile work like saving those damn cheetas.
 
You are at some point going to have to face up to the fact that there in no hard evidence whatsoever for this creature you think inhabits forests and mountains worldwide in numbers that would make them hard to miss. Analyzing tracks and dodgy film to the n'th degree doesn't make it any more real, what it does it divert good people from worthwhile work like saving those damn cheetas.

They can't save them. Haven't they ever heard the old adage:
"Cheetahs never prosper".
 
LAL said:
Green was taken in by Marx's fake photos at first. He considers anything to do with Marx tainted, but the Bossburg tracks have held up as some of the best evidence despite Marx' antics.

It would be nice to know exactly which stories Krantz didn't research. In his book he concentrates on things like the casts, dermal ridges, sweat pores, and the Patterson film, with measurements and a method for calculating the weight.

Regarding stories, he says this on pg. 245:

"Media exposure also draws in many vague reports of no value, as well as contacts from the lunatic fringe that I can do without. I am becoming increasingly impatient with the nut cases. Years ago I listened patiently to a woman who told me about the twenty- foot tall man she saw with handsome, clean-shaven features. Later, when a young man told me that sasquatch visited him often and even sat on his bed, I told him he was imagining it. I said the same to the man who assured me that he saw a sasquatch driving a car. I was downright rude to the most recent caller who is experimenting contacting sasquatch spirits by 'channelling'. Another whole book could be written about the opinions and antics of the lunatic fringe."

Does that sound like he was gullible? Or should he have researched stories such as those?

Yes, you should read him just to get an idea of what he was really like rather than just taking the word of someone seeking to discredit his research.

The fact that Krantz was not so gullible as to accept outrageously silly stories does not, unfortunately, guarantee that he was able to detect well implemented hoaxes. Krantz deserves some credit for trying to filter out nonsense, but being harder to fool than some may not be enough if someone is trying hard enough to fool you.

From what I've read, the main reason Krantz and others have accepted the prints is not that they believed it entirely impossible to fabricate such prints, but that they believed the likelihood of such an elaborate hoax to be less than the likelihood of a sasquatch. This remains arguable, I think, whatever you might believe with regard to the actual existence of sasquatches, especially given the presence in the area at the time of such a notorious and persistent hoaxer as Marx.

It may have been hard for an honest man like Krantz to understand the motivation for a truly elaborate and dedicated hoax, but unfortunately, there seem to be a few people who will go to incredible lengths to perpetrate fraud, even when the rewards seem trivial, and his incredulity is not enough for me at least.
 
William Parcher said:
So Lu, do you have any plans concerning your participation in this forum?

The 3 Bigfoot threads here now total over 2040 postings. That is mostly because of you.

Note I started none of them. I may continue to post when I have the time and interest, but if I take a few days off to take care of other matters, don't assume you've succeeded in running me off the board.
Yet, Bigfoot is now no more real than if there were not a single thread on the topic.

Your opinion. There are many who would disagree with that statement.
Are you running a tribute to Krantz. That man wrote many hundreds of pages on Bigfoot. You are running many hundreds of postings. Do you possibly think that quantity of words and references to Bigfoot could serve as some sort of surrogate for the animal itself?

I think that interested parties might want to read up on some of the only real research that's been done on this. I expect Meldrum's book will be better, but it's not out yet. Murphy has the best pictures and is a good place to start, especially for those who might find Krantz too technical. I've shown my copy of LMS to a sceptical pair of friends and am now having to talk them out of an expedition to try to shoot one with a camcorder on the Tennessee border during a trip that is to last one to three nights. If I were such an evangelist, don't you think I'd be right out there with them roasting the hot dogs?
Will you eventually move on to another forum to proselytize Bigfoot, or stay here to slog out another 1000 posts? Do you feel that you are on a kind of righteous misson?
I don't know where you get the idea I'm proselytizing. I'm appalled at some of the misinformation I've encountered, largely due to media hoopla over Wallace and Heironimus. I thought I'd left all this behind in Skamania County, where I listened to people who'd had experiences with this, but my interest was revived partly because of debates on Creationism vs. Evolution boards when someone would make some disparaging remark about people who "believe in Bigfoot, UFO's and the Loch Ness Monster".

I got really burned out on CvE after two years of it on three boards, although we got into everything from abiogensis to the speed of light. I was pointed to this board by a member I know in real life after the topic came up at an atheist meet-up. She used to live in Washington State. Another member of the group has a sister who saw one while on a camping trip in Washington, so, yes, the topic has come up in real life from time to time. This is one of many things I'm interested in. I haven't figured out why people don't call me "obsessed" when I talk about art or history or organic brain syndromes instead.

I've recently joined a board run by a researcher and haven't even posted on it. I just read that one.
From one atheist to another, does this seem to you like it is coming from within your "soul"?

No, I've been led to my conclusions by the evidence. I don't have a "soul". I really hope your efforts to portray me as an idiot aren't convincing anyone.
 
bruto said:
The fact that Krantz was not so gullible as to accept outrageously silly stories does not, unfortunately, guarantee that he was able to detect well implemented hoaxes. Krantz deserves some credit for trying to filter out nonsense, but being harder to fool than some may not be enough if someone is trying hard enough to fool you.

From what I've read, the main reason Krantz and others have accepted the prints is not that they believed it entirely impossible to fabricate such prints, but that they believed the likelihood of such an elaborate hoax to be less than the likelihood of a sasquatch. This remains arguable, I think, whatever you might believe with regard to the actual existence of sasquatches, especially given the presence in the area at the time of such a notorious and persistent hoaxer as Marx.

It may have been hard for an honest man like Krantz to understand the motivation for a truly elaborate and dedicated hoax, but unfortunately, there seem to be a few people who will go to incredible lengths to perpetrate fraud, even when the rewards seem trivial, and his incredulity is not enough for me at least.

He wasn't the only investigator on this. Have you bothered to read the book? It's not based on "stories". The typical hoaxer merely enlarges his own foot; Krantz was struck by adaptations for great weight in a primate inhabiting mountainous areas. He didn't think it likely that a hoaxer would have that kind of detailed knowlege. Read the book. It's interesting.

The Bossburg tracks were one of thousands of track events. There are casts nearly fifty years old. There are tracks from last spring. Isn't it a stretch of the imagination to think that hoaxers get to the high Sierras and remote mountains in B.C. to somehow lay down trackways just to fool people who don't know themselves where they are going? Do you really believe there are thousands of people running around in gorilla suits appearing to be 8' tall just to fool unwary campers and motorists? Who was doing the hoaxing before the coming of the white man?

Marx was called in after the first Bossburg tracks were found because of his known interest. He started faking films when interest was dying down in order to "kind of keep things going" (and possibly to continue to stay on the payroll). Cliff Crook has pulled similar stunts. Freeman may have done some fakery too, out of frustration, yet some of his evidence is compelling. Byrne, who exposed Marx, has been accused of being a fraud (by Green). And so it goes.

The evidence speaks for itself, and to try to throw it all out just because some over-zealous "researcher" went too far is some of that "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" Meldrum speaks of.

Some others who've taken an interest:

Dr. Bernard Heuvelmans (zoologist, France)
Dr. W. Henner Fahrenbach (research scientist, Oregon Regional Primate Center)
Dr. John Napier (primatologist, University of London)
Dr. Frank E. Poirier (paleoanthropologist/primatologist, Ohio State University)
Dr. John Bindernagel (wildlife biologist, former wildlife advisor for United Nations)
Dr. D. W. Grieve (anatomist, Royal Free Hospital School of Medicine, London)
Dr. John Bodley (anthropologist, Washington State University)
Dr. Dmitri D. Donskoy (biomechanics, Russia)
Dr. Robert Pyle (ecologist,Yale University alumnus)
Dr. J. Richard Greenwell (mammalogist, International Wildlife Museum, Tucson)
Dr. William Montagna (primatologist, Regional Primate Research Center)
Valentin B. Sapunov (biologist, Leningrad State Univeristy, Russia)
Vladimir Markotic (physical anthropologist, University of Calgary)
Jeff Glickman (computer scientist, North American Science Institute)
Dmitri Bayanov (hominologist, Darwin Museum, Russia)
Jim Hewkin (wildlife biologist, formerly with Oregon Dept. of Fish and Wildlife)
Dr. Marie-Jeanne Koffman, aka Dr. Zh. I Kofman (scientist, Russia)
Dr. R. Lynn Kirlin (professor, University of Wyoming)
Dr. William Saxe Wihr (department of anthropology, Portland Community College)
Dr. LeRoy Fish (wildlife ecologist, retired)

Krantz was not alone.
 
William Parcher said:
"The first thing you learn about Bigfoot is that they have big feet. I drew in the bones so that you would know where the bones are that I drew in. Those are the bones." Dr. Grover Krantz PhD

"Look, I wasn't kidding when I said they have big feet. This is a Bigfoot big foot. We call this individual Raggedfoot. A Bigfoot colleague suggested that the injuries may have been caused by a scuffle with a member of a remnant population of saber-toothed cat. Because I am a scientist, I replied that only further research and measurement could decide on the factuality of that claim." Dr. Grover Krantz PhD

Here Dr. Grover Krantz PhD demonstrates the so-called 'Patty Walk' shown in the Patterson-Gimlin film. "Notice the bottom of my foot sticking up like this. Patty stuck her foot up when she stuck her foot up. Bigfoot does this and humans don't. Some may call this a 'Grouchopliant Python Walk'. You can also see that I can't make myself look like Bigfoot no matter how much I try. If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. If the walk doesn't work, any scoftic must be a jerk."

"Woo!" Chimpanzee (a primate known to science).

"Woo!" Dr. Jane Goodall PhD (a primate known to science).


You might want to post your links. Some newbie might think the "quotes" are real, rather than just another of your lame attempts to discredit the effort with what seems to pass as humor on this board.
 
LTC8K6 said:
I forgot to mention the biggest problem of all.

The cripplefoot cast does not match the clear cripplefoot print in the snow.

So where was the cripplefoot cast taken from?

Near the dump. There was a pair. The cast matches the photo except that one toe apparently didn't leave a print.

You are way off track here (pun intended).

At the spot Krantz measured the fence was 44". 43" could be at a slightly different spot or a reporting error. Fences do vary in height along their length, you know.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Evidently there were 2 crippled sasquatch in Bossburg, since we have 2 different tracks.


You haven't come close to showing that.

It was a wire fence anyway. Easy to bend down the top strand and step over. No one would think to do that, though......

That's shown in Bigfoot in the Rockies, in fact, in connection with a sighting of one stepping over a barbed wire fence. It was possible to calculate height from that. What makes you think no one would think of it?
 
William Parcher said:
I just noticed that on Bigfoot Forums (BFF), LAL has a total of 599 postings. Here on JREF, she has 851 posts. Lu, is this forum more compelling for discussion than being among the "true believers"? You have blitzed messages here, but have said comparatively little among the brethren. Is it because hardly anyone over there argues against Bigfoot?

I've subscribed to 189 threads on BFF in a little over a year ( I lurked for a few months before joining). I haven't posted on some of them at all, but I've been in some heated debates on the Bossburg tracks (which see), Paul Freeman and the Minnesota Iceman. I notice some of my posts on just the first page of "all posts by this member" had 11,466 views. I'm glad to know that so many people are taking an interest and that membership on that board has increased by over 1600 just since I joined.

I take it you noted the number of my posts but didn't read them?
 

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