Bigfoot - serious, not follies

[Thurkon]

Noll:

"I believe that Roger really did his home work and was ahead of his time, setting the tone for modern Sasquatch research to this day. "

You can say that again.

 

[Correa Neto]

Noll:

"........'ambulance chasing' has gotten nothing in return so far and I really wouldn't waste my time with it. It just might work if you are in to relying on luck though. There are many reasons for an animal to be in a particular place at a particular moment, not all of which indicates a repeatable experience. Time and date, track or sighting plotted on a map will indicate the proper habitat, route or periphery of a core niche. ...snip...

So what?

Nothing of what you posted answer the question on why those guys were the only ones who managed to produce a (highly questionable) footage of what they claim to be a bigfoot.

Shall we suppose they knew at the late 60s more about bigfeet habits than BFRO nowdays? Note that BFRO claims to have a lot of documental data on bigfeet behavior, including breeding and giving birth. Check what other peple have qoted directly from their site. If not, then why with all the data on bigfeet behavior BRFO personal never managed to get a sharp picture of footage of the creature?

Why all the other professional and amateur wildlife photographers that worked and wotk in North America never managed to obtain good pictures/footage? Sorry, but to say that they were not looking for bigfeet or that they only work while there is daylight avaliable are not valid answers. You´ll think these are valid answers only if you don´t have a clue on how their field work is done.

Oh, time, track, core niche, etc. These are not that different from the approaches I suggested pages ago and you claimed were only usefull for the Serengueti, and not at PNW (even tough it is not supposed to live only in PNW)...

 

[LTC8K6]

An interesting exchange between Noll and Krantz regarding the cripple foot cast. It appears there is something a bit odd about the cripplefoot cast, and which one we have seen.

I think I am correct about the print in the snow not looking at all like the cast and the skeleton drawing of cripplefoot. That's because there are different ones indeed. Ones made in the snow, ones made in soft dirt, and apparently copies made by putting casts in soft dirt.

There are apparently cripplefoot casts made in 1969 and in 1970.

So which cripple foot is which?

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/noll_krantz.htm

Dr. Krantz: "The very last one... the crippled foot, he uncovered for me when I was there."

Rick: "And that was in snow?"

Dr. Krantz: "Yes. So me and my friends made a cast of that and we still got it."

Rick: "How did you make the cast in snow?"

Dr. Krantz: "Just poured... ahmm mixed the plaster and poured it in. Everybody seems to think you can't make plaster casts in snow but you sure can. Ahmm we made that one and it turned out fine. I made plaster casts of my first Irish Wolfhound's footprints in snow, and everyone said you can't do it and so I tried it; worked perfectly. When the plaster is starting to set, it warms up considerably but it is already set to a degree where it is not going to move."

Rick: "Well, I think that is one of the things they say is a problem (talking about the generated heat). But I think the main problem is water in the plaster freezing, and not curing the plaster itself. And so what happens, I have seen it, the print has a bunch of dry spots afterwards, it just gets riddled. But if you mix a 5% solution of Potassium sulfate with the plaster, it lowers the freezing temperature of the water in the plaster and allows it to set up. But that is in really cold environments."

Dr. Krantz: "Yeah... I suspect I didn't run into that problem with the dogs footprints or the ahh Sasquatch track because the temperature of the air around was probably above freezing, and the snow was just barely."

Rick: "That's an excellent cast for being in snow."

Dr. Krantz: "Oh... that one you saw here is not from that."

Rick: "Oh..."

Dr. Krantz: "That one was taken in late '69. The previous event, where the same individual came through, ahh and it was in soft dirt, not snow. Somebody up in Colville, butcher by trade, made the two casts. Rene Dahinden has the originals. But somebody put those in a very fine bed of dirt and made copies of them, and I was able to get a hold of those and borrow them and make the molds."

Rick: "Ahhmm did you see any difference in the bone structure between the print that you saw the year before or years before and the ones you got casts of? Like maybe further deterioration or something over the years?"


Dr. Krantz: "Oh no. Basically the same anatomy, late '69 versus early '70. But when I was up there in, near Bossburg, I talked to an old farmer, who said that he had seen tracks just like that 20 years before. And some years after, I can't remember if it was 6 years or 10 years, a very excited student came down to talk to me and he had been up in that area and he saw tracks that exactly matched that."

Rick: "So that leads to the question of how long do you think one of these creatures could live?"

Dr. Krantz: "Well, unless I have some reason to think contrary, say they live life as the great apes do, which would be about 40 years. So 30 years as an adult."

Rick: "So this one has ahh... kicked the bucket."

Dr. Krantz: "Well after that last student, by the way his name was Gary Larsen, I suspect he was the cartoonist. I know THE Gary Larson was a student of the Washington State University. Must have taken a class from me because he had a lot of anthropology in some of his jokes. (rick laughs) So a guy named Gary Larsen tells me about the print, (as if talking to himself) it had to be him."

Rick: "And that individual hasn't been, the footprints haven't been seen since?"

Dr. Krantz: "No. So that last event was probably near the end of it's life."

 

[Skeptical Greg]

We are expected to believe that a casting medium, whose temperature is above freezing, is not going to distort an impression in the snow ?

Oh, I forgot, we are not dealing with real science here, where stuff like physics applies...

 

[fsol]

From that Chris Walas thread that LAL mentioned. Saying that his arguments had been "torn to shreds."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=8446&st=160#

(I don't seem to be able to link to actual posts but no matter, the page will do.)

There are some interestng newspaper clippings, Contemporary to the PGF, posted by Tirademan regarding suits and in particular the use of prosthetics to increase the arm length, whilst still being able to flex the hand.

Chris Walas himself posts some pictures of a couple of suits made by Charlie Gemora And significantly, blurs them a little to produce that authentic PGF fuzzyness. Compare them to the accompinaing PGF still and see which looks most like a man in a suit. Why I can even make out the musculator of the "Gorillas" upper arm as it rests on its forearms. The poor thing also seems to have injured its right thigh.

I think Walas made his case pretty well.

 

[Thurkon]

From that Chris Walas thread that LAL mentioned. Saying that his arguments had been "torn to shreds."

There are some interestng newspaper clippings, Contemporary to the PGF, posted by Tirademan regarding suits and in particular the use of prosthetics to increase the arm length, whilst still being able to flex the hand.

Chris Walas himself posts some pictures of a couple of suits made by Charlie Gemora And significantly, blurs them a little to produce that authentic PGF fuzzyness. Compare them to the accompinaing PGF still and see which looks most like a man in a suit. Why I can even make out the musculator of the "Gorillas" upper arm as it rests on its forearms. The poor thing also seems to have injured its right thigh.

I think Walas made his case pretty well.

Yeah, I was going to point out that LAL had exaggerrated at best, and lied at worst. Then I realized it was useless, as LAL lives in a different universe than I do...populated by large, hairy primates who flip around in the mud like fish to get an apple.

Chris held his own pretty well there, even whilst enduring personal and professional insults. One poster felt the need to rent a comedic film he did about cavemen and post screenshots, claiming that was some kind of indication of his standard work...despite his large and impressive resume on imdb.com that shows quite the contrary.

Fun crowd, that. There's a reason I don't post or troll there. The lunatics are running the asylum.

Torn to shreds? Not even close. Some of the Footers even declared he raised some valid questions...

 

[Thurkon]

There are some interestng newspaper clippings, Contemporary to the PGF, posted by Tirademan regarding suits and in particular the use of prosthetics to increase the arm length, whilst still being able to flex the hand.

And despite posting that, LAL and her kind will continue to post that this is impossible, because Krantz The Almighty declared it so.

Krantz is an expert on everything, even gorilla suits.

Impossible, he says.



They parrot the same hogwash incessantly. Over and over and over. Welcome to the Church of Bigfoot.

 

[Thurkon]

An interesting exchange between Noll and Krantz regarding the cripple foot cast.

That's a great exchange between two blowhards about the lifespan of a footprint.


Let's play a game. First, we make up an imaginary giant ape species. Next, we name imaginary individuals within the imaginary species. Sound fun?

I'll do two. How about Cripplefoot and Patty? You next...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

From that Chris Walas thread that LAL mentioned. Saying that his arguments had been "torn to shreds."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=8446&st=160#


(I don't seem to be able to link to actual posts but no matter, the page will do.)

There are some interestng newspaper clippings, Contemporary to the PGF, posted by Tirademan regarding suits and in particular the use of prosthetics to increase the arm length, whilst still being able to flex the hand.

Chris Walas himself posts some pictures of a couple of suits made by Charlie Gemora And significantly, blurs them a little to produce that authentic PGF fuzzyness. Compare them to the accompinaing PGF still and see which looks most like a man in a suit. Why I can even make out the musculator of the "Gorillas" upper arm as it rests on its forearms. The poor thing also seems to have injured its right thigh.

I think Walas made his case pretty well.

Looks like Patty has a ' Butt ' twin ..

Didn't have the ability to make a suit like Patty in 67 ? How 'bout 49 ?

 

[LTC8K6]

I am still not clear as to what exactly is on the LMS DVD.

Is it a copy of the first gen copy in it's original form?

Has it been cleaned up?

Is it from the work done by NASI, which is heavily altered?

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, I am not going to bother with the LMS DVD at all.
Judging by this pdf file about the DVD, I will only get flaming mad at the ridiculous liberties they have undoubtedly taken.

I suspect that you can't see much of anything at all in the original P/G film other than a vague dark hairy thing walking, and that most of what we have seen is considerably cleaned up.

Look at the blowup of frame 352. Nothing but reddish brown vaguely head shaped thing. How did Patty get red anyway.

http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/MeeSasSC.pdf

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Well, I am not going to bother with the LMS DVD at all.
Judging by this pdf file about the DVD, I will only get flaming mad at the ridiculous liberties they have undoubtedly taken.

I suspect that you can't see much of anything at all in the original P/G film other than a vague dark hairy thing walking, and that most of what we have seen is considerably cleaned up.

Look at the blowup of frame 352. Nothing but reddish brown vaguely head shaped thing. How did Patty get red anyway.

http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/MeeSasSC.pdf

Yes, I am familiar with frame 352..


I know we have our problems with Beckjord, but this info on the 16mm camera and film is interesting..

http://www.beckjord.com/bigfoot/pattcam.htmlbeckjord

I'm working on another source for acopy of PGF.. I'll let you know how it works out..


What do you think about Patty's butt twin ?

 

[LTC8K6]

You would think that frame would end the argument about suit quality, but it won't.

Another shot from Africa Screams:

 

[LTC8K6]

1) SRP makes tests on Patterson Film, finds a way to
verify it was all shot at 16 frames per sec. - Simple - P&G filmed each other
on horseback at the start of the film roll. When projected at
24 fps, the horses are weirdly,unnaturally fast in walking. At 16 fps,
they are 100% natural.

Well yeah, we have been asking about the rest of the film for quite a while now.

It also seems that there are a few more settings on that camera than I first thought. Naturally, you wonder about it being set correctly for Patty......

Diogenes, your beckjord link didn't work, but I found my way to the page.

 

[UrsulaV]

Well, any nagging questions I may have had about whether or not the thing in the Patterson film was a suit (I don't know much about costuming, so I wasn't gonna say "That has to be a suit!" based on my own experience,) are pretty much annhilated by that pair of shots above. Heck, the one we KNOW is a suit makes a rather more convincing looking Bigfoot.

And available in '49? Yup, that would make it bargain basement by the time the Patterson film was shot.

(Here, I'll beat LAL to the punch and dismiss my opinion as a skeptical non-expert in advance. On the other hand, I HAVE lived in the mountains of the PNW, which apparently gives me some kind of mystic insight. Perhaps the two cancel each other out. )

Nevertheless, as long and agonizing and drawn out as this thread has become, I'm glad it lasted this long, because it did serve to remove any doubt that the Patterson film was a total hoax from my mind, and that's one more nagging bit of cryptozoology from my youth off my back.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Well, any nagging questions I may have had about whether or not the thing in the Patterson film was a suit (I don't know much about costuming, so I wasn't gonna say "That has to be a suit!" based on my own experience,) are pretty much annhilated by that pair of shots above. Heck, the one we KNOW is a suit makes a rather more convincing looking Bigfoot.

And available in '49? Yup, that would make it bargain basement by the time the Patterson film was shot.

(Here, I'll beat LAL to the punch and dismiss my opinion as a skeptical non-expert in advance. On the other hand, I HAVE lived in the mountains of the PNW, which apparently gives me some kind of mystic insight. Perhaps the two cancel each other out. )

Nevertheless, as long and agonizing and drawn out as this thread has become, I'm glad it lasted this long, because it did serve to remove any doubt that the Patterson film was a total hoax from my mind, and that's one more nagging bit of cryptozoology from my youth off my back.

I figured that sooner or later that fur diaper was going to show up somewhere.. Voila' !

I'm not going to speculate on the rationalization to follow.. Darn, yes I am...

How about .. " The fur diaper was modeled after an actual Bigfoot .. "


Nahhh.. They'll have something better than that ...


Here they are side by side, just to get a little better perspective..

 

[Thurkon]

Well, I am not going to bother with the LMS DVD at all.
Judging by this pdf file about the DVD, I will only get flaming mad at the ridiculous liberties they have undoubtedly taken.

They used the track castings to recreate Patty’s digital foot and bone structure. The castings. Didn’t they consider that the castings might not have come from the Patty “creature”? No. Not a skeptical bone in this guy’s body.

Legend meets “Science”, my ass.

"Technology will never replace field studies but
it does greatly enhance such studies. Being out in the woods armed with a digital thermal camera is a great feeling, you know nothing can hide from you," he said.

Obviously, something can hide from you. Show me the Foot.

“It was a bit of a shock to see how human the creature looked without the facial hair.”

You don’t say…

 

[LTC8K6]

Yep, the LMS DVD is a promotional aid for bigfoot, not a scientific look at bigfoot evidence.

 

[LTC8K6]

Diogenes, it's obvious that the whole P/G suit was modeled after an actual sasquatch.

 

[LAL]

They used the track castings to recreate Patty’s digital foot and bone structure. The castings. Didn’t they consider that the castings might not have come from the Patty “creature”? No. Not a skeptical bone in this guy’s body.

Legend meets “Science”, my ass.



Obviously, something can hide from you. Show me the Foot.



You don’t say…

Be advised, oh unenlightened one, that Doug Hajicek was a sceptic until he and others members of his crew discovered a trackway in Northwest Territories, Canada, while on a standard filming mission. The forensic animator he hired for the documentary, Reuben Steindorf, was an "unbeliever" as well.

Since the computer animation was of the creature in the film, why not use the casts of her feet? What other casts should have been used? Bossburg, maybe?