Merged Bigfoot follies

[turtle]

I'm reminded of an MIT project to create a crop circle that included "expulsion cavities" in the wheat, as well as scattered magnetized balls of iron. They made the expulsion cavities by hooking up a microwave's magnetron up to a waveguide of some sort, and set up a sort of bomb that would scatter the magnetic balls. For the expulsion cavities, I never would have thought of their contraption. Apparently a number of proponents of the alien hypothesis thought hoaxers couldn't replicate them.

I saw that program as well. Yes, they recreated a crop circle, not quite the same as "hoaxing." And while they did it with a microwave's magnetron, it was scary, and dangerous, and a hassle to lug all the equipment around. To think that crop circle hoaxers are running around the globe with this kind of equipment, just for a lark and to fool people, is as ridiculous as thinking aliens are the cause of it all.

[/I]Lesson: Until we get up to DNA samples, remains, and actual specimens, bigfoot's existence is less plausible than hoaxes and other mundane explanations. [/B]

While BF hoaxes abound, to suggest that because of that, there is not BF, is ridiculous.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I saw that program as well. Yes, they recreated a crop circle, not quite the same as "hoaxing." And while they did it with a microwave's magnetron, it was scary, and dangerous, and a hassle to lug all the equipment around. To think that crop circle hoaxers are running around the globe with this kind of equipment, just for a lark and to fool people, is as ridiculous as thinking aliens are the cause of it all.

I don't find it hard to imagine that some do, though I imagine most just do the basic plank and rope. Some probably carry a few safer and easier gimmicks to get their circles labelled "authentic." But even with all that extra equipment I still find it much easier to believe than aliens travelling/transmitting from lightyears away to bend wheat into weird shapes. I try not to underestimate what human beings will do for a snicker.

While BF hoaxes abound, to suggest that because of that, there is not BF, is ridiculous.

Straw man. I'm not suggesting that BF can't exist, or that hoaxes magically prove his non-existence. I meant to imply that he's less plausible than existing hoax explanations, therefore I default to those existing hoax explanations. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong by exceptional evidence, such as DNA and specimens.

What I'm trying to say is that advocates have to get enough quality evidence that the existence of bigfoot has to be more probable than hoaxes. I have seen no such evidence.

 

[Red Siegfried]

Still no body, still no DNA, just some dodgy prints.

Footprints alone prove nothing, so I don't even know why I waste time debating them. You simply can't classify an alleged species like this by footprints alone. Maybe you could get away with that with some sort of bird ... but we know birds exist and we know that it's entirely possible, even likely, that there are more left to discover, so it's not as huge a leap in evidence.

If you claim to be scientific about it at all, don't waste your time with footprints argument unless you have some really good collaborating evidence, which we don't have here. Footprints alone prove nothing right now, even if they end up being real in the final result. And the only way we can confirm they are real is if we get a specimen.

I'm waiting ... still no specimen.

Yes, I'm willing to change my mind on bigfoot, but it requires a specimen or some really good DNA evidence for me to change it. Your level of evidence may vary, in which case, I have some seaside property for sale that you may be interested in.

Wanna bring up the hair evidence again? Ah, why bother. I'm done.

 

[hodgy]

To think that crop circle hoaxers are running around the globe with this kind of equipment, just for a lark and to fool people, is as ridiculous as thinking aliens are the cause of it all.

In many ways hoaxers (including the BF variety) can be compared to internet 'hackers'. Some of those people spend thousands of hours of their own, unpaid time trying (often very successfully) to break the security systems of the world's most successful software vendors.

These people are capable of taking on the corporate world's best paid, most highly talented professionals and they do so at no insignificant risk to themselves (i.e. lengthy prison sentences).

Your arguments for the existence of BF will continue to have little weight whilst make claims based on the idea that things are impossible to hoax.

 

[Bronze Dog]

Good analogy, hodgy. There are lots of hackers who do their thing because they consider it fun. All those pointless killer viruses out there don't come from nowhere. I have no difficulty imagining other people apply their unusual talents to hoaxes in meatspace.

I repeat: I try not to underestimate what human beings will do for a snicker.

 

[hodgy]

Good analogy, hodgy. There are lots of hackers who do their thing because they consider it fun. All those pointless killer viruses out there don't come from nowhere. I have no difficulty imagining other people apply their unusual talents to hoaxes in meatspace.

I repeat: I try not to underestimate what human beings will do for a snicker.

Thanks - as soon as anyone comes up with the argument 'it can't be a hoax because its too clever / detailed / requires subject knowledge etc... ' that's a damn good indication that it's a hoax IMO. Why? Because its trotted out instead of hard evidence that really couldn't be a hoax (such as a genuine BF corpse).

These BF believers are deliberately turning a blind eye to human ingenuity and motivation.

 

[WildCat]

All that aside, there's a part of me that really, really wants to discover that there's a N. American hominid walking among us. How cool would that be!

But, sadly, deep down I know there's not a chance in a million Bigfoot is out there.

 

[Cleon]

All that aside, there's a part of me that really, really wants to discover that there's a N. American hominid walking among us. How cool would that be!

But, sadly, deep down I know there's not a chance in a million Bigfoot is out there.

I agree, though I think the chance is better than one in a million. It's not like the Loch Ness Monster, which simply can't exist (given the lack of a substantial food supply in the lake for a population of such creatures).

Bigfoot is at least in the realm of possibility without having to rewrite biological science. He's got a lot of territory to move around in, and with a bit of intelligence (perfectly reasonable for a hominid) if he chooses to remaining hidden wouldn't be difficult. Unlikely, sure, but much more likely than the existence of superpowers or patently absurd notions like lake monsters.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I've got a humble pie in storage, in case they discover and capture a BF (or if someone passes the Randi challenge.) I fear that I may never have the opportunity to eat it.

 

[The Odd Emperor]

The "suit hypothesis" is the simplest explanation for the Patterson film. Any other explanation requires truly dazzling displays of mental gymnastics to come close to making any kind of sense. Bigfoot Woos have yet to show any proof.

Before a rational mind believes in something so extraordinary, it needs more than a gossamer tissue of fabrication and speculation.

And before you bring up "dermal ridges" again. Realize that no one except Bigfoot Woos talk about dermal ridges. Of course all the experts on dermal ridges in 8 foot tall North American primates claim they're proof that Bigfoot exists. The only experts on dermal ridges in 8 foot tall North American primates are Bigfoot Woos. Do a little experiment. Scrape up some loose dirt in your back yard. Walk barefoot across it. Look at your footprints. Do you see the "dermal ridges" of your toes? Of course not. It's silly. Just like all the silly nonsense about Bigfoot.

This is exactly where I loose track of the whole thing. I’m really skeptical of the idea that a plaster cast could be made of a muddy footprint that has enough definition to reflect dermal ridges. The photos show something but it’s difficult to make out. I have done plaster jewelry casting and the resolution for the media I used was not even good enough to show dermal ridges. Only a rubber compound could do that, like the stuff used in dentistry. But then you only have the resolution of your random media (I.E. mud.) It’s an awful lot for me to swallow.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, you can certainly see human dermal ridges in the right kind of medium. I have seen them in mud and in very fine dust. There is even one sceptic, I think, who noted that he could see his own dermal ridges when he stepped right next to a bigfoot track, but there were none in the bigfoot track.

I think Bigfoot dermal ridges are supposed to be a bit bigger than ours, making them easier to spot. Then you'd have to ask why they don't show up more often.

As far as the "blown nodes" in crop circles, they are entirely normal and need no explanation or microwaves. They are what you get when you bend a fast growing crop over.

 

[The Odd Emperor]

Well, you can certainly see human dermal ridges in the right kind of medium. I have seen them in mud and in very fine dust. There is even one sceptic, I think, who noted that he could see his own dermal ridges when he stepped right next to a bigfoot track, but there were none in the bigfoot track.

I think Bigfoot dermal ridges are supposed to be a bit bigger than ours, making them easier to spot. Then you'd have to ask why they don't show up more often.

As far as the "blown nodes" in crop circles, they are entirely normal and need no explanation or microwaves. They are what you get when you bend a fast growing crop over.

Anything is possible. I’ve seen mud that could certainly hold fine detail like dermal ridges. I’ve used plaster with that kind of definition. But it would take a humdinger of a casting to get usable dermal ridges out of a random footprint, at least in my opinion. Not impossible just amazing if it were to happen.

 

[The Odd Emperor]

I saw that program as well. Yes, they recreated a crop circle, not quite the same as "hoaxing." And while they did it with a microwave's magnetron, it was scary, and dangerous, and a hassle to lug all the equipment around. To think that crop circle hoaxers are running around the globe with this kind of equipment, just for a lark and to fool people, is as ridiculous as thinking aliens are the cause of it all.

I tend to agree, you can always prove that it’s possible to fake something but it’s very difficult to prove that a specific event was faked.

While BF hoaxes abound, to suggest that because of that, there is not BF, is ridiculous.

Well the default position must always be “not proven until the evidence is in.” The evidence has got to be a specimen or a series of observations/photos/films/recordings and physical samples that is so overwhelming that it cannot be called a hoax.

But, many people think the moon landings were hoaxed and that’s exactly the evidence they have. No matter how much evidence you have, there will always be someone who will yell “fake.” That’s why I think that only a physical specimen will settle this matter.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, there's a difference between being able to see the dermal ridges in the footprint and getting them to show in the cast.

 

[LTC8K6]

Hey, I would love for Bigfoot to be real. It would be the find of the century. A primate that can throw a full 55 gallon drum would be cool and terrifying at the same time. You'd need a heck of a cage at the zoo to hold one.

When you ride around the woods in a loud, 6 wheeled vehicle, you just aren't going to attract many animals to you.

I just don't think that marching into the woods with 15 or 20 people in loud vehicles, planting human tainted food, electronics, and pheromone baits all over the place, blasting god knows what sounds into the air, and standing around talking in the dark is ever going to work.

They probably need to get one person to stay by themselves in the woods for a couple months. One person every so many square miles to stay in the woods for a long time and get the smell of the city off of them. Give each person a good still and video camera and make sure they know how to use them.

Forget about footprints. Forget about hair unless it has the follicle attached. Forget about photos and video unless they are clear.

Even so, we are going to need a body or part of one.

 

[LAL]

LOL


Some of the evidence that has been presented refers to ' thousands of tracks..

Funny, they all lead to nowhere,

No, they go into forest where they're lost. I've already explained what the ground cover is like in Western Washington.

and the one time when they have a print of a Bigfoot laying down, he seems to have flown in..

Wrong. There were tracks found in the area. The ground immediately around the mudhole was fine gravel. There were no tracks of anything leading to it.
You obviously aren't familiar with the terrain in Skamania County.

 

[LAL]

Well, you can certainly see human dermal ridges in the right kind of medium. I have seen them in mud and in very fine dust. There is even one sceptic, I think, who noted that he could see his own dermal ridges when he stepped right next to a bigfoot track, but there were none in the bigfoot track.

Source that please. I'm not aware of any sceptic who's examined tracks in situ.

I think Bigfoot dermal ridges are supposed to be a bit bigger than ours, making them easier to spot. Then you'd have to ask why they don't show up more often.

I think the Odd Emperor answered that. Chilcutt found half a dozen or so casts in Meldrum's collection compelling because of the ridges. The ridges are larger, which makes hoaxing by rolling a foot around in a carved depression unlikely to work.

 

[LAL]

In many ways hoaxers (including the BF variety) can be compared to internet 'hackers'. Some of those people spend thousands of hours of their own, unpaid time trying (often very successfully) to break the security systems of the world's most successful software vendors.

These people are capable of taking on the corporate world's best paid, most highly talented professionals and they do so at no insignificant risk to themselves (i.e. lengthy prison sentences).

Your arguments for the existence of BF will continue to have little weight whilst make claims based on the idea that things are impossible to hoax.

I think sceptics overestimate the number of actual hoaxes. Two that got national media coverage have been debunked. There was a case last year of two teenagers scaring people with a gorilla suit. They were apprehended. I've mentioned several others. They've all been ridiculously amateurish. No track-making machines (with or without articulating toes) have been discovered.
A handfull of hoaxes in the last fifty years or so hardly justifies thinking it's all a hoax, IMO.
April gave two wonderful opportunities to prove hoaxes. Did this happen?

 

[LAL]

I agree, though I think the chance is better than one in a million. It's not like the Loch Ness Monster, which simply can't exist (given the lack of a substantial food supply in the lake for a population of such creatures).

Bigfoot is at least in the realm of possibility without having to rewrite biological science. He's got a lot of territory to move around in, and with a bit of intelligence (perfectly reasonable for a hominid) if he chooses to remaining hidden wouldn't be difficult. Unlikely, sure, but much more likely than the existence of superpowers or patently absurd notions like lake monsters.

Richard Noll thinks there are about thirty in Washington State.
Wolves and Wolverines were thought to be extinct in the southern Cascades, but I found Wolverine tracks on land I owned in the Columbia Gorge on a new skid road (they seem to have "floated in" because there was no visible sign anywhere else) and a friend whose business kept him in the woods a lot saw wolves. A wolverine was killed on the road to Carson, even though it was extinct.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio.........."

The forests of the Northwest (and elsewhere) are quite capable of supporting a large hominid primate species that seems to be omnivorous.
I'm interested in why people are so willing to buy a hoax hypothesis despite all evidence to the contrary. Is our last shred of egocentric theory being challenged?

 

[LAL]

I don't recall LAL saying that. Of course things can be faked, and they have been.

I didn't say that.

Being able to prove that some things have been faked does not equal "all things are fake."

Thank you.


For those who think it takes "mental gymnastics" to see a real creature in the Patterson film as opposed to a "man in a suit", please see the keyholes M. K. provided on this page.

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=10844&st=120

The man in the suit is the man who claims to be the man in the suit. He's considerably heavier than he was in 1967, BTW.