Merged Bigfoot follies

[LAL]

That really blows. If your honestly pursuing a scientific objective, keeping your nose clean and staying objective. Doing this kind of research should enhance your career.

But, we are dealing with emotional, irrational humans here. That’s why I maintain that only a specimen will convince most people.


Krantz was disliked by many in the "Bigfoot community" for advocating killing one in order to convince science.
He spent much of his free time trying to do that.



I thought it was 6,ooo years ago.


+/- 4000 years. 6000 was Bishop Ussher's dating. Some YECers don't accept it.




Hey hey HEY! No cracks about Batboy! Batboy's da bomb!



I apologize to Batboy and his little dog too.


Well, you can always tell when a debunker has gone too far, it’s when their probable explanation is far more complex than the fantastic explanation.



Applying Occam's Razor:


http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/LocalsSC.pdf



I would guess that if the tracks were the work of a hoaxer than it was the same hoaxer twenty years apart. Unusual to say the least but not impossible. Otherwise I’d have to admit that I don’t know how the various tracks seem to be made by the same individual over many years—It could be a real animal.



Jimmy Chilcutt found this compelling. It wasn't the same animal but they were the same type of ridges. Chilcutt was sceptical to begin with, BTW. He called Meldrum to see if he could be of assistance.
Chilcutt is the only expert on primate prints.
In the case of Bluff Creek, three or four individuals were identifiable by their prints.



I’m actually quite astounded that plaster casts of footprints could produce dermal ridges at all, even in mud.



Not to mention sweat pores. (They're irregular in shape, not to be confused with air bubbles.) Krantz showed some of them to DR. Tim White. Plaster isn't the most sensitive material and not all casts show them, nor were they noticed right away.
The Skookum Cast shows hair imprints and friction ridges on the heel. They had a good supply of casting compound on hand, but came close to running out before the impression was filled.
That cast and the opinion of the top primate anatomist in the country should have settled the matter, but it didn't. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[LAL]

Chilcutt's report on Elkins Creek:


http://www.rfthomas.clara.net/papers/elkins.html

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Do you honestly think professors of anatomy are so stupid they can't spot a fake?

It would seem that any number of people don't consider the opinion of an anatomy professor the final word.

That cast and the opinion of the top primate anatomist in the country should have settled the matter, but it didn't.

Surely you aren't suggesting that experts have never been fooled by hoaxes?

 

[The Odd Emperor]

Krantz was disliked by many in the "Bigfoot community" for advocating killing one in order to convince science.
He spent much of his free time trying to do that.

I dislike the idea. Personally some really good “duck blind” photographs would convince me, so long as the people and the photos can be vetted properly. The fact that such a thing seems impossible is suggestive to me that this is mostly a sociological phenomena, much like UFOs. In fact, to my way of thinking; Bigfoot testimony sounds so similar to UFO accounts that I often wonder if same mechanism might not be at work (whatever that may be.)

Of course a body would settle the matter, better yet; a live specimen.

BTW, just as a personal aside. I have some friends who take boy scouts camping in a Florida forest. Last year they reported hearing strange howling, not unlike monkey sounds. This year I’m either going to tag along or send a digital recorder and ask them to run the thing all night to see what shows up. But, it’s probably escaped chimps or something like that.

The skunk-ape stories com up occasionally. They always seem fishy as all get-out or delusional, never falsifiable or verifiable so not scientific.

 

[delphi_ote]

BTW, just as a personal aside. I have some friends who take boy scouts camping in a Florida forest. Last year they reported hearing strange howling, not unlike monkey sounds. This year I’m either going to tag along or send a digital recorder and ask them to run the thing all night to see what shows up. But, it’s probably escaped chimps or something like that. [/B]

Not sure where you're located, Sr. Emperor, but I know in my area there are plenty of odd noises normal critters make in the night that could be confused with a monkey by Boy Scouts. Coyotes howls, owl hoots, bird calls... even 'coons could be confused for a monkey.

I did the scout thing for a while, and a group of boys at night in the woods can imagine almost anything. Listen to a new scout recently back from a "snipe hunt" if ye doubt.

 

[LTC8K6]

Do you honestly think professors of anatomy are so stupid they can't spot a fake?

Yes.

There are plenty of examples of scientists failing to spot hoaxes and frauds.

Plenty of learned folk endorse all kinds of woo-woo nonsense.

It's hardly unusual.

We even have woo-woo being taught & studied at universities.

Aren't there professors who disagree with Krantz?

Drawing the bones on the cast is just wrong.

It's like drawing the ghost on the ghost photo.
Without help, no one can find the ghost in the picture.
As soon as you draw the ghost in for them, everybody can see it.

 

[The Odd Emperor]

Not sure where you're located, Sr. Emperor, but I know in my area there are plenty of odd noises normal critters make in the night that could be confused with a monkey by Boy Scouts. Coyotes howls, owl hoots, bird calls... even 'coons could be confused for a monkey.

I did the scout thing for a while, and a group of boys at night in the woods can imagine almost anything. Listen to a new scout recently back from a "snipe hunt" if ye doubt.

Haruph! I could hardly be mistaken for one of the eques!

I’m located a few inches from my left ear. Obviously the people in question were camping in a Florida forest, the Ocala National Forest I think.

I myself have done lots of backpacking and heard normal critter sounds, raccoons, pigs etc. Coons make a very distinctive sound. But the scouts didn’t tell me about this, it was the *scout councilors.* And they don’t believe in snipes or Bigfoot for that matter. But there are monkeys and probably even apes running around the Florida woods, and many other exotics.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/skeptical.htm

Lots of interesting info here.

After an eight-month effort, I was able to talk with Parker, then living on the East Coast. He told me the footprint was a fake. He knew this because he had made the imprint and the cast! Originally he had intended only to see if Krantz could, as he bragged, "differentiate between [a track] made artificially or naturally." Parker said he now feels the thing has gone too far and regrets he made the [Bloomington] track. I asked how it had been made. "It took about twenty minutes to form the print in the mud," he said. The dermal ridges came from his foot and hands, placed in areas where the "least amount of wear or abrasion would occur." What about the "two traits"? "Oh," Parker replied, "I wasn't sure about that. I thought they might be toenails and scars, so I added both." Parker also told me he made "the ball of the foot appear deeper near the inside of the foot to simulate the weight-bearing area during a light push-off." At the last minute, he embedded the shell of an American black walnut where the fifth toe would have been to make the print look more realistic.(12)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/skeptical.htm

Lots of interesting info here.

What's interesting (IMO), is that your link is found at the 3rd hit when googling with keyword ' bigfoot '..


I wonder how this escaped the scrutiny of someone who is really interested in objective information rather than confirming their foregone conclusion/s and filtering out contrary findings?

 

[LAL]

I dislike the idea. Personally some really good “duck blind” photographs would convince me, so long as the people and the photos can be vetted properly. The fact that such a thing seems impossible is suggestive to me that this is mostly a sociological phenomena, much like UFOs. In fact, to my way of thinking; Bigfoot testimony sounds so similar to UFO accounts that I often wonder if same mechanism might not be at work (whatever that may be.)

UFO's don't, to my knowlege, leave tracks, hair and scat or feed on hibernating Golden Mantled Ground Squirrels or Willow leaves.

Of course a body would settle the matter, better yet; a live specimen.

BTW, just as a personal aside. I have some friends who take boy scouts camping in a Florida forest. Last year they reported hearing strange howling, not unlike monkey sounds. This year I’m either going to tag along or send a digital recorder and ask them to run the thing all night to see what shows up. But, it’s probably escaped chimps or something like that.

Check all the zoos for reports of escaped Chimps, did you?
Alleged Sasquatch calls don't match with Chimps, or any other known mammal. They've been analyzed at Texas A&M.

http://www.texasbigfoot.com/cc_caller1.html


I heard a similar story first hand from South Carolina.

The skunk-ape stories com up occasionally. They always seem fishy as all get-out or delusional, never falsifiable or verifiable so not scientific.

There seems to be an active faker on some of it, but that's not to say he couldn't have been inspired by real events, as Wallace was.
It's possible there are subspecies.

 

[Ladewig]

I myself have done lots of backpacking and heard normal critter sounds, raccoons, pigs etc. Coons make a very distinctive sound. But the scouts didn’t tell me about this, it was the *scout councilors.* And they don’t believe in snipes or Bigfoot for that matter. But there are monkeys and probably even apes running around the Florida woods, and many other exotics.

Don't forget humans. Sometimes humans just out of sight of scout troops make very exotic noises in the night. At least they did years and years ago when I was 13. Be sure to take roll call when strange noises appear.

 

[LAL]

It would seem that any number of people don't consider the opinion of an anatomy professor the final word.

Dr. Daris Swindler, professor emeritus, U of W, is a giant in the field of primate anatomy. He was a sceptic for thirty years, until he examined the Skookum Cast.

In health care, for instance, would you rather have the opinion of an acknowleged expert in oncology or that of some guy who drove by the hospital and didn't notice anything wrong?

Surely you aren't suggesting that experts have never been fooled by hoaxes?

Dr. Grover Krantz was somewhat fooled by one, as has been already explained. According to Noll, this was no amateur job; he was fooled by an expert. This in no way invalidates his work overall.
There are other casts from east of the Rockies that are deemed authentic.


"Exposing hoaxes is as much a part of this effort as establishing the credibility of other evidence." - Dr. Jeffery Meldrum

Meldrum exposed Snow walker, as I've already mentioned.

 

[LAL]

Dr. Daris Swindler, professor emeritus, University of Washington, is a giant in the field of primate anatomy. He was a sceptic for thirty years, until he examined the Skookum Cast.

In health care, for instance, would you rather have the opinion of an acknowleged expert in oncology or that of some guy who drove by the hospital and didn't notice anything wrong?





Dr. Grover Krantz was somewhat fooled by one, as has been already explained. According to Noll, this was no amateur job; he was fooled by an expert. This in no way invalidates his work overall. Einstein made mistakes too.
There are other casts from east of the Rockies that are deemed authentic.


"Exposing hoaxes is as much a part of this effort as establishing the credibility of other evidence." - Dr. Jeffery Meldrum

Meldrum exposed Snow walker, as I've already mentioned.

 

[LAL]

 

[LAL]

Got glitch trouble again. I don't know what's going on.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Alleged Sasquatch calls don't match with Chimps, or any other known mammal. They've been analyzed at Texas A&M.

http://www.texasbigfoot.com/cc_caller1.html

Do you even bother to read your own sources?

There is nothing there that rules out chimps or any other known mammal...

"This is a mammal, at least we suspect," he said. "We're still analyzing that."

"There is a whole range of things that it might possibly be," he said. "In all possibilities, there is the possibility that this could be human."


"We have recordings but what the source might be, we don't know," he said. "It is evidence but it might be negative evidence."

Do you have anything that actually supports your position?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Dr. Daris Swindler, professor emeritus, U of W, is a giant in the field of primate anatomy. He was a sceptic for thirty years, until he examined the Skookum Cast.

And never makes mistakes.. I'm convinced..


In health care, for instance, would you rather have the opinion of an acknowleged expert in oncology or that of some guy who drove by the hospital and didn't notice anything wrong?


And this has what, exactly, to do with the veracity of Bigfoot tales?

 

[LAL]

What's interesting (IMO), is that your link is found at the 3rd hit when googling with keyword ' bigfoot '..


I wonder how this escaped the scrutiny of someone who is really interested in objective information

It didn't. I read it when it was first published. I saved it in Favorites over a year ago.

rather than confirming their foregone conclusion/s and filtering out contrary findings?

Interesting how the rebuttals seem to get missed.
This review has been removed from the site I found it on, hopefully for inclusion in a book.

Jeffery Meldrum:

"Daegling’s entire assessment of the incidents involving Paul Freeman appears to be largely
filtered through the smoked lens of Michael Dennett. The numerous problems alluded to by Daegling lie not
with the tracks but with the decidedly skewed interpretations of the tracks. With all due respect to the reputed
tracking prowess of Joel Hardin, his mind was made up prior to the event; he interpreted the tracks as if they
were man tracks. In most points of his objection the apparent contradictions are precisely what should have
been expected based on the distinctive style of walking surmised for the sasquatch, based on other tracks and
eyewitness accounts. Krantz deals with Hardin’s points head-on in his book and I discussed them at length
indirectly with Hardin. Dennett is again cited as a source for Dahinden’s claim that tracks were left a
nonsequential series, with two left feet in succession – an apparently damning situation, if true. Dahinden
corrected this bit of misrepresentation when I questioned him on it. His sarcastic comment, indiscriminately
reported by Dennett, that one couldn’t tell a right foot from a left, and there appeared to be “two left feet” was
baseless. Further distortions by Dennett include the often repeated claim that Freeman admitted to faking
footprints. In reality Freeman stated that he had experimented in his backyard to determine what would be
required, if it was even possible, to fake a convincing Bigfoot track. In that case, I guess I am guilty of hoaxing
Bigfoot tracks, as well as any other serious-minded researcher who has done his homework. As for the rumor
that Freeman worked at an orthopedic shoe company -- as best I can determine there is no substance to it; let
Dennett reveal his “anonymous sources.”

 

[LAL]

It has to do with taking the word of experts who have actually examined the evidence over that of people who don't actually know what they're talking about.

 

[LAL]

Quote function isn't working for me. Exasperating!

Dr. Esteban Sarmiento, functional anatomist with the Museum of Natural History in New York reached the same conclusion. Neither of these guys found their Phd's in a Cracker Jack box.
What evidence do you have that they are mistaken?