Merged Bigfoot follies

[LAL]

…Never. Things which have stopped serious scientific enquiry are lack of funding and religious intolerance (like in the Middle Ages.)

Where ridicule really stings is when people know and understand that their stance is pseudoscientific. Where it has its greatest effect is where people systematically attempt to deceive. Ridicule can plant a spotlight on people, call attention to their deceptions and the more they attempt to shut a scoffer up the more questionable their own position becomes.

Paul Freeman was fired from the Forest Service. Sheriff Herrington of Gray's Harbor County was not re-elected after his position became known. There are perils.

Dr. Meldrum seems to be hanging on and may even be swaying some. He's used this in his teaching.

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/jeffm.htm

If he's attempting to deceive, why is his cast collection open for inspection?

 

[LAL]

Hey great! Let me know how much you plan to donate and we can get such a thing started.

As it has been abundantly demonstrated, expeditions have never brought back anything conclusive—only weak evidence that gets touted as proof.

Amateurs are not making the subject ridicules, the “experts” are doing so by systematically attempting to classify a new mammal without providing the evidence it would take to classify a new bug. I agree that people should keep an open mind but *making* one’s mind up before all the data is in cannot be a good example.

Who has demonstrated "expeditions have never brought back anything conclusive"? Who determines what is conclusive and what isn't?

 

[The Odd Emperor]

Who has demonstrated "expeditions have never brought back anything conclusive"? Who determines what is conclusive and what isn't?

The scientific community. Ipso facto that Bigfoot has never been classified as a new mammal.

 

[The Odd Emperor]

Paul Freeman was fired from the Forest Service. Sheriff Herrington of Gray's Harbor County was not re-elected after his position became known. There are perils.

Dr. Meldrum seems to be hanging on and may even be swaying some. He's used this in his teaching.

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/articles/jeffm.htm

If he's attempting to deceive, why is his cast collection open for inspection?

Eh? You do understand I was making an issuance in the rhetoric do you not? I was not referring to any one person in specific?

 

[LAL]

Ooh ooh! I know the answer to this one!

For the same reason there were no Bigfoot tracks.

What do I win?

Nothing.


The idea of placing the fruit in the center of a mud wallow was in hopes of getting clear tracks leading from the edge to the center. Unexpectedly, the animal sat down and leaned (other great apes do this too) and reached for the fruit.

Elk eat standing. Even if an elk had elected to wallow and eat the fruit while reclining, there would be clear elk hoofprints near the center when it got back up. Unless you want me to believe it rolled out.

In any event, that's not an elk print. And elk do not leave piles of chewed apple bits.

 

[LAL]

Whether they push like humans or not is irrelevant. Forward motion involves pushing.

Whether the moss springs back or not, it is hard to believe it would not be damaged by being stepped on by an 800 lb creature.

It might be squashed for awhile, but it's remarably resiliant.
If anyone's thinking it's at all like delicate dark green moss, think small rope instead. It grows in a spongy mat.

Club moss is found on talus and trees. Where there's soil there's
Salal, Oregon Grape, ferns, Devil's club, Poison Oak, Blackberry......all are springy and they grow so thickly they seem to be growing on top of each other.

"Randles print, though interesting, was inconclusive. However, Noll's print find was rather compelling. Noll found the impression about 150 yards from camp. It was located in an old section of a moss-covered deadfall tree that was half-buried in the earth, and lay just inside the treeline. The print measured 17 inches in length, and was very fresh (less than 24 hours). 3 feet further along the tree, a section had been freshly crushed. This suggests that the subsequent footstep of the animal that left the first print had found a weak spot in the deadfall, which gave way under it's weight."

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayfive.htm

 

[LAL]

Eh? You do understand I was making an issuance in the rhetoric do you not? I was not referring to any one person in specific?

Yes, but I'd like to see something more specific.

I could give you an example using the scientist who was exposed recently on his alleged Neandertal skulls if I could remember his name.

 

[LAL]

The scientific community. Ipso facto that Bigfoot has never been classified as a new mammal.

Photos seem to be good enough for monkeys.

I know of no one pushing for classification at this point. Had Krantz prevailed years ago with getting it classified as a species of Gigantopithecus, that could have been changed if it turned out to be incorrect. Parathropus was changed to Australopithecus for the robust species and there are those who want it changed back. Classifications aren't written in granite.

Jimmy Chilcutt found several casts "compelling" and he's not a scientist. So who's allowed to use these words and who makes the determination.......... publicly anyway?"

 

[LAL]

I agree. My front lawn is more moss than grass (due to lax gardening on my part). I regularly push our 6 month old baby across this "lawn" in his stroller. The tracks we make are always easily discernable the next day and usually for much longer than 1 day. Our total weight is considerably less than 800lb.

What species of moss is it?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

It might be squashed for awhile, but it's remarably resiliant.
If anyone's thinking it's at all like delicate dark green moss, think small rope instead. It grows in a spongy mat.

You were arguing that the moss would not show damage because of the way Bigfoot walks..

Club moss is found on talus and trees. Where there's soil there's
Salal, Oregon Grape, ferns, Devil's club, Poison Oak, Blackberry......all are springy and they grow so thickly they seem to be growing on top of each other.

Your earlier point had the moss growing on rock.. ? ..

"Randles print, though interesting, was inconclusive. However, Noll's print find was rather compelling. Noll found the impression about 150 yards from camp. It was located in an old section of a moss-covered deadfall tree that was half-buried in the earth, and lay just inside the treeline. The print measured 17 inches in length, and was very fresh (less than 24 hours). 3 feet further along the tree, a section had been freshly crushed. This suggests that the subsequent footstep of the animal that left the first print had found a weak spot in the deadfall, which gave way under it's weight."

http://www.bfro.net/NEWS/pnw_newsletter003/dayfive.htm

If Noll's find was so compelling, why no casts ?

 

[LAL]

I have suggested several ways to hoax several things about bigfoot. I pretty nearly begged you to try to think of how you might do some of the things. You acted as if you had no clue and no one else would either. You seemed bewildered by the whole concept of hoaxing.

You make assumptions.

I'm trying to envision these experienced "Bigfooters" with a trained zoologist along (who, because he left a bootprint and was gone for a few minutes checking bait traps, is to be regarded as a hoaxer) using every bit of Hydrocal on hand casting an elk imprint. They then haul this 300 lb. cast back to civilization where it is cleaned by an expert in primate locomotion, then examined by the man who wrote the standard on primate anatomy and a functional anatomist in the American Museum of Natural History, who fail to identify the elk knee prints that you see "clear as a bell".

Okay, I find that bewildering.

Dr. David Daegling, who found a way to make some money off the sceptical side, it seems, a la Greg Long, took Cliff Crook's opinion (Crook's credibility went down in flames with the "bell-shaped object and the photos of a model) and neither has seen the cast. Has Daegling written a paper for publication debunking the cast?

It is open for inspection by scientists in any relevant field. Green and Noll are working on a way to produce a copy for public display without damaging the original.

In the words of René Dahinden (re the PGF), "My God, what do you have to show them before they're take it seriously?"

 

[Steve]

What species of moss is it?

"The Cryptogamic Herbarium at the Natural History Museum, London (BM) contains about780,000 specimens of mosses, of which about 20,000 are types."

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/departments/botany/databases/moss/moss_collections.html

"about 20,000 types"! I am not a botanist and I do not know what type is in my lawn. Do you know, with accuracy, what type of moss you are discussing?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I find it amusing, if not outright hilarious, that your Skookum expedition ( experienced "Bigfooters" with a trained zoologist along ) had no Idea what might have been the source of some screams they heard, even though they had encountered a mountain lion earlier that same night..


Of course this observation will carry no weight, since it smacks of ad hom..

 

[LAL]

Originally posted by LAL

It might be squashed for awhile, but it's remarably resiliant.
If anyone's thinking it's at all like delicate dark green moss, think small rope instead. It grows in a spongy mat.

You were arguing that the moss would not show damage because of the way Bigfoot walks.

It would not nescessarily be torn up, as was claimed. Being squashed wouldn't necessarily kill it or tear it up. In a compliant gait the feet land rather flat on the ground. Try doing a Groucho Marx impression even on the delicate dark green stuff and see how much damage you do.

If Noll's find was so compelling, why no casts ?

Ask Noll.

There are already a thousand casts of footprints. Maybe they were waiting for clear prints in the mud, which was one of the stated aims. I don't know that a cast of one on a log would show a lot of detail. The photo might have been enough. There was a "possible" on a log road. Noll had found prints in the area earlier, which was why they chose Skookum Meadow. I don't know if any were cast.

Similarly, tracks were found (of three individuals) prior to the PGF near Bluff Creek. That was why Patterson and Gimlin chose that area to try to film more tracks.

 

[LAL]

I find it amusing, if not outright hilarious, that your Skookum expedition ( experienced "Bigfooters" with a trained zoologist along ) had no Idea what might have been the source of some screams they heard, even though they had encountered a mountain lion earlier that same night..


Of course this observation will carry no weight, since it smacks of ad hom..

Mountain lions sound nothing like recorded calls thought to be Sasquatch. If they didn't associate the screams with a mountain lion, it's just possible the screams didn't sound like a mountain lion. I'm sure that out of thirteen people at least one might have thought of that.

There's a comparison audio on one of the BFRO reports. The recording was done by a couple camping. It's an eerie moaning, hooing sort of sound. Rangers evidently tell the tourists these calls are female Cougars in heat.

The city-bound can then click on the screech of a Cougar in heat. No similarity.

 

[LAL]

"The Cryptogamic Herbarium at the Natural History Museum, London (BM) contains about780,000 specimens of mosses, of which about 20,000 are types."

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/departments/botany/databases/moss/moss_collections.html

"about 20,000 types"! I am not a botanist and I do not know what type is in my lawn. Do you know, with accuracy, what type of moss you are discussing?

http://www.vancouver.wsu.edu/fac/robson/cl/natrs301/clubmoss/clubmoss.htm

I'm sorry the link to the photos doesn't work. To my knowlege there's only one species of club moss growing all the hell over Skamania County. I don't know its scientific name.

Is your moss dark green and velvety or thick and bristly- looking and bright chartreuse when it's not dried out?

PNW club moss looks like these:

http://www.borealforest.org/ferns/fern9.htm

http://www.borealforest.org/ferns/fern8.htm

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Mountain lions sound nothing like recorded calls thought to be Sasquatch. If they didn't associate the screams with a mountain lion, it's just possible the screams didn't sound like a mountain lion. I'm sure that out of thirteen people at least one might have thought of that.

Why are you sure? Seems strange that this meticulous expert group of people were not recording during their ' baiting ' sessions...



There's a comparison audio on one of the BFRO reports. The recording was done by a couple camping. It's an eerie moaning, hooing sort of sound. Rangers evidently tell the tourists these calls are female Cougars in heat.

The city-bound can then click on the screech of a Cougar in heat. No similarity.

Who said this was a female cougar in heat? Shall I find you some sources that say a cougar can sound like a woman screaming ?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The Skookum Expedition is full of funny stories..

Just after passing the road that lead to Ridgetop (about 1 mile from base camp) Searle noticed a series of hotspots on the righthand side embankment. Noll stopped the vehicle, and stepped out to investigate by flashlight. Searle used the thermal unit to guide Noll to the location of the heat sources, as Noll was unable to see hot spots. Upon zeroing in on the spots, Noll was able to discern scrape marks and impressions that denoted something having travelled along that path, but they were very light and inconclusive. There were 3 heat spots total, 1 on the road, and 2 in the embankment. We had been informed prior to the trip that the thermal unit was capable of detecting the residual heat left by a footstep, provided it was a bare foot. Of course, a hooved mammal, such as an elk or deer, could not have left a detectable level of residual heat. A bear, on the other hand, could have left large, residual heat prints. However, the heat prints that were found were a large distance apart, although an exact measurement was not obtained.

Does anyone here see a problem with finding ' 3 ' thermal prints?


These people are among the the best ?

 

[LAL]

Who said this was a female cougar in heat? Shall I find you some sources that say a cougar can sound like a woman screaming ?

Not necessary; I used to live in Cougar country. Several of the expedition members live (or lived) in Washington State. I doubt there's a resident over the age of two who hasn't heard that a Cougar can sound like a woman screaming.

 

[LAL]

The Skookum Expedition is full of funny stories..



Does anyone here see a problem with finding ' 3 ' thermal prints?


These people are among the the best ?

They're among the only who actually go out with some sophisticated equipment. (Note the description of a recorded Sasquatch scream):

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/sanfran.htm

I don't see why you think that's funny. One of the purposes of the expedition was to test the thermal equipment to see if it would be of use. It took the batteries down too fast and wasn't as useful as they had hoped. How long does a heat imprint last? There was frost heave in the mud hole on day eight.

For some reason, the quote feature isn't letting me quote much. Anyone else having a problem?

This from earlier:

Club moss is found on talus and trees. Where there's soil there's
Salal, Oregon Grape, ferns, Devil's club, Poison Oak, Blackberry......all are springy and they grow so thickly they seem to be growing on top of each other.

Your earlier point had the moss growing on rock.. ?

Talus is rock.

ta·lus 2 (tls)
n. pl. ta·lus·es
A sloping mass of rock debris at the base of a cliff.

The area is volcanic, remember?

In local usage "talus" referred to any large rock bed that hadn't been taken over by forest. They aren't necessarily at the base of cliffs. One of mine had cairns left by young men of the now extinct Cascade tribe who used the area for vision quests. They had to be where they could see the rising and the setting sun.

There were Doug firs growing here and there in them that were 800 years old (according to the director of the DNR). How they managed to root is a mystery. They were so distorted and gnarly they looked like giant Bonsai.