Bigfoot DNA

[Castro]

so in regards to castros questions about Disotell <snip>

Thank you calwaterbear, it's much clearer to me now.

 

[idoubtit]

No one seems to be able to keep their stories straight. It's hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

Where IS the Ketchum Bigfoot DNA study? Reviewed, rejected, or Russia? Apparently, it may be all three at once.

 

[StankApe]

Ketchum's team responds to Dr Igor's claims;

"In regards to what is being said . The only thing that happened with the paper was at one time it was sent back rejected pending revisions. They didnt even read it all. this is a long paper 50 pages. This is what Igor is referring to The REVISIONS HAVE BEEN DONE AND THE JOURNAL HAS THEM NOW. They are now reading the paper. I have read the paper myself it is very indepth. and long. Extremely scientific. This is why it is talking so long. This is what Igor is referring to. In Russia they very much believe in the forest people . That is why it is also in review there. It is being reviewed in the U.S. as well as Russia. The large amount of information takes alot of time to be though. Also this is a topic never been done before. All this adds up to taking alot longer to approve." - Robin Lynne

 

[Sonny2]

Is Robin Lynne from Russia or does she just have a writing impediment?

 

[MikeG]

You'd think a PR person, a publicist, would have some capacity to manufacture whole sentences in English, wouldn't you? I mean, wouldn't that be one of the first things you looked for when employing someone in that role?

So, how did Robin Lynne get that job?

Mike

 

[Jodie]

Jodie,
Why would you accept that statement about primers as being true? Firstly, Stubstad: What would he know? Secondly, Ketchum... Do you have any evidence that she was doing any sequencing? I don't know of any. Her business, when she had one, was extracting and running "DNA fingerprint" sorts of stuff. She certainly was sending a lot of stuff out to bigger labs. According to some of the dozens of complaints about her service, she wasn't around the lab enough to even sign reports. She couldn't keep her staff, and couldn't even keep adequate supplies on hand. As far as I can see, the "primers" thing just a second- or third-hand story from questionable sources.

I can't say for sure that the story is false, but perhaps you are a bit credulous when it comes to her statements.

imho.

I don't accept anything as true which is why I questioned Stubstad about the need for it if you are dealing with another primate. However, I don't know how designing primers would be used if you are trying to identify a new species or if or when it would be appropriate to use? I haven't heard back from Jean, Cal gotta an answer?

As for the extent to which her business dealings had deteriorated, I didn't realize how bad it really was until you guys looked into it about 4 weeks ago. I had doubts about a paper existing over a year ago but with that new insight in mind, I have now have doubts anything was ever done at all to include sending samples out for sequencing. At this point I'm not sure the research even exists.

 

[idoubtit]

At the beginning of the day yesterday, I thought that we'd all been snookered and there was no paper. If there was a rejection then let's see the rejection letter. But I now think there definitely is a paper since Burtsev changed his story or we misunderstood his statement (unfortunately to admit that nasty man Lindsay was right) and it will end up in Russian obscurity. But the media will love it, the Russian scientists will hype it and the Yeti tourism will be boosted.

 

[Drewbot]

I would hope that the topic has never been done before.

I keep submitting papers that have already been done... and they never get accepted. I can't figure it out.

 

[DennyT]

At the beginning of the day yesterday, I thought that we'd all been snookered and there was no paper. If there was a rejection then let's see the rejection letter. But I now think there definitely is a paper since Burtsev changed his story or we misunderstood his statement (unfortunately to admit that nasty man Lindsay was right) and it will end up in Russian obscurity. But the media will love it, the Russian scientists will hype it and the Yeti tourism will be boosted.

It's semantics, but yes, I think there is a "paper". And I would guess that there has been some sequencing done by labs which are capable of doing it. I do not think that Ketchum's lab was capable of doing the sequencing, nor do I think that Ketchum has the ability to make convincing arguments about primate evolution or population genetics.

So the question becomes,

Does she actually have a dozen or so co-authors who have done the thinking and writing on a paper that apparently is trying to make some human nuDNA SNPs or other variations into a hybrid? line of flesh and blood bigfoots?

My thinking would be no. I would guess that she recruited scientists at the labs that did the sequencing, promising them co-authorships, possibly in exchange for a discount on the cost of sequencing. This is a pretty commonplace kind of arrangement (and likely explains Ketchum's co-authorship on a paper or two in the past). At the time, these scientists did not know what sort of paper she was writing. It is possible that she collected their data and lab protocols, then wrote a paper according to her own beliefs, and submitted it to journals without these "co-authors" ever seeing a draft. That would be very bad form, but what's new? If that scenario is what took place, then I would guess that the "paper" never got to reviewers. I say that because seemingly neither Hawks nor Disotell ever heard about it, and Meldrum didn't seem to be a part of it. I would guess it was summarily handed back because it was, well, not even good enough to review.

If that is the general scenario that happened, I would guess that over the last few days a lot of her so-called "co-authors" have realized what is going on and have been trying to "FindMelbo" and withdraw their names from the list of authors. This will really sink any chance of the paper being published in an academic journal. I do think she had a chance of publishing a paper if it were presented as a negative study. That opportunity still exists, if she were to just ship her data to a Todd Disotell and let him explain what she has. I am totally certain he would publish an explanation. Will she do that? no.

The alternative to academic recognition has always been "go for the money."
If one attributes rational thinking here, then this current media explosion was the pre-lease hype of a commercial venture, which would be some sort of book, most likely. But it is starting to look like there is no book. The PR person is not, to put it mildly, a credible literary type. If this hype, which has put the final kibosh on her academic ambitions, is allowed to fade away without Ketchum capitalizing on it with a commercial venture, then we have to attribute the whole thing to what might be called a "gang that can't shoot straight."

Inevitably, ThePaper will surface. Burtsev has a copy and it doesn't seem like he will let it go unpublished one way or another, maybe in 6 months or a year. I don't imagine he's too afraid of legal ramifications. I mean, it's Russia, and he has a website.

 

[The Shrike]

I would guess it was summarily handed back because it was, well, not even good enough to review.

If the remark above about it being 50 (!) pages is accurate, then length alone would probably make it unreviewable. Nevermind the kind of stuff TheMelba might have included in those 50 pages. . .

 

[calwaterbear]

Clear up a couple of things

1. Primers: Jodie, designing primers used to be a big deal, and fairly tough. Nowdays you can easily find all sorts of primers that are suitable. You can just order em up. On top of that, if you design a new primer, you just send a comercial lab the sequence you want the primer to be, and they whip it out for you. new Primers is a complete red herring by someone whose knowledge of DNA is dated by 15 years. And a primer BTW cost me 10 bucks and I can run 200 samples with that primer, so thats not any issue!

2. Available Databases / Criminal/ Military etc: in Regards to Melba, our best guess, going on what she said, is that she is using SNP to look for evidence of "different" DNA sequences. That particulalr use is typically to look at individual variation and population variation in a given species (with rare exceptions).

If that is the case, her results would be incompatible with the large human databases available - things like CODIS (an FBI maintained database of DNA) and the military databases, use a completely different "methodology. In those cases they use Short Tandom repeats STR. essentially short segments of bases repeating a pattern. Because they use such short pieces of DNA it is pretty hardy, less likely to be degraded. right now we can get useable STP from as few as 18 cells (thats a pretty tiny sample, there are 10's or 100's of thousand cells in a single hair). and have been expermentally able to pull useable STR from a single cell) anyway they look at the specific location and sequence of these STR regions - CODIS has settled on 13 marker regions - that mathmatically moves the chance of a perfect match up over one in a trillion.

what that means is that it is a completely different process (STR) , and results are incompatible with SNP. so even if she had access to those datbases - which she does not, she would need to process the samples in a completely different way.

Hope that clears up some stuff!
CWB

 

[calwaterbear]

George Knapp knew 2.5 years ago!

For those of you who do not know who George Knapp is, he made a career for himself as an "invstigative Reporter" in Las Vegas, he has done some riduculous work - ie Lazar was hired by the governmebrt to reverse engineer an alien space ship at area 51. He also has done some good research reporting on voter fraud and some other stuff.
anyway he was in on this 2.5 years ago - so apparently the research was completed 2.5 years ago, and now of course the government is struggling to cover up this bombshell.

http://lasvegascitylife.com/section...rge-knapp-i’m-dreaming-bigfoot-christmas.html

One thing seems to be accurate in his story - the supposed world renowned Microbiologist/ believer will not give his name for fear of professional scorn. Really?

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, you are now about to be let in on a huge conspiracy secret. All of us scientists every year hold a top secret meeting at a top secret location. In that meeting we cover the triumvirant of truth.
things that we need to supress the truth at all costs.

1. climate change - all of us scientist know for a fact there is no climate change, but if we say that, we will be killed by the top secret consortium that monitors and controlls working scientists across the globe!

2. big foot is here, and we know it. I'm not clear why we need to keep this secret. In fact I have tried to raise that question in the meeting, but when I do i get a bunch of gufawws, and am escorted out of the building and hit with one of those dememory wands from men in black (BTW that MIB stuff - thats all true - a documentary!)

3. aliens, little green men, space visitors: you name it, they visit us all the time. those darn little guys are so clever they can defeat the laws of physics to visit us on a regular basis. Funny thing is they have a reverse memory tool, essentially like a negative of your memory: so If you have a memory of being Anally Probed by an alien, it never happened, BUT! If you do not remember that... thats right folks - youve been celestially violated!

 

[Jodie]

But Igor has hoaxed, I would take anything he says with a grain of salt. He planted the hair in the cave in Russia, conveniently plucking it from where it was located with his fingers, and telling Meldrum it was bigfoot hair. He also faked bigfoot tracks in the cave that were either all left or all right feet.

 

[Sonny2]

3. aliens, little green men, space visitors: you name it, they visit us all the time. those darn little guys are so clever they can defeat the laws of physics to visit us on a regular basis. Funny thing is they have a reverse memory tool, essentially like a negative of your memory: so If you have a memory of being Anally Probed by an alien, it never happened, BUT! If you do not remember that... thats right folks - youve been celestially violated!

We know the truth...
It's out there...
And it's been erased.

 

[jerrywayne]

I emailed Dr. Burtsev asking if the DNA study will be published in a Russian journal. Here is his reply:

Dear Sir,

Yes, it supposed to be published in a Russian scientific journal, issued in both versions -Russian and English, end on-line.
When it will be close to issue we shall inform the public how to get it.

Igor Burtsev

.

Returning to my post of a few pages ago. Burtsev is saying "Yes," it will be published in a Russian "scientific journal." This does not sound like it is being reviewed; it is a done deal.

My guess is that Ketchum failed to produce a reviewable paper, Burtsev stepped in and offered to get it published in a Yeti-friendly journal.

This is, imo, an unfortunate turn of events. I had hoped Ketchum would produce something publishable and then be seriously critiqued by relevant scientists. (And I'm assuming the critiques would refute the paper.) As it stands now, if the paper is relegated to a Russian journal of (pseudo) science (let's not forget this episode in Soviet science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism), then Bigfooters will do their anti-establishment science dance and cry "foul" on the unresponsive mainstream science that is sure to follow a Russian publication. And nothing changes.

 

[jerrywayne]

Here is a pro-Ketchum article by a journalist who was given access to Ketchum some time ago, and he has concluded, after a dinner, that Ketchum has a game changer and that science is closed-minded.

http://lasvegascitylife.com/section...rge-knapp-i’m-dreaming-bigfoot-christmas.html

 

[jerrywayne]

Ketchum's latest:


"I really appreciate all of the support. Let the hecklers have their day, who cares. Our science is overkilled beyond reason. After all they accepted a new species of monkey (below) with less than 6.8 kilobases of sequence. Our mito alone
is 16.5 Kb on the samples. Our nuclear is 3 genomes from three individuals and is 3 Terabytes of data and billions of bases plus a lot of other testing and disciplines. We also used blind studies. I don't care what anyone says, we have this nailed and it will come out. The journal just has to have the guts to go where no journal has gone before. I personally believe that they will do it."

 

[jerrywayne]

Super latest from Ketchum (she's in a talkative mood):

"About the journal, it is in review. So far no indication of rejection as they did take it. Just waiting on the reviewers.... All will reveal itself in due time."

So, there is still hope she will have a published paper in a real journal to look at?

 

[Jodie]

I think all of it is hogwash, both Igor and Ketchum's assertions. I'm waiting on , " The bigfoot ate my paper" excuse. I've heard every other excuse she could come up with.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

ABP, I beg to differ here. There are several features of DNA that give it added power over eyewitness, plaster casts etc. And actually we have already seen the DNA evidence shift the BF discussion in significant ways.

First, as referenced here earlier, we do use DNA to define new species . We mentioned the Denisovians, identified through a tooth, a finger bone, and DNA.

Logical fallacy of begging the question. You just assumed that bigfoot exists in order to "conclude" DNA analysis is useful in defining its existence.

Second: Even the reported results of melbas study, even before they can be reviewed - have already changed the frame of the discussion. Based on her reports, we now have to look at this thing as a highbrid population.

No we don't. She hasn't produced anything but Three-Stooges level press releases and the like. Sure, the wild claims are generating discussion. Sneering press reports. Skeptics having a field day. 'Footers twisting in the wind.

Valid DNA, analyzed properly, would lead to the discovery of a previously unknown North American primate in short order!

There you are begging the question again, and furthermore dismissing the facts in front of our eyes that hoaxers, charletans, attention seekers and so forth are collecting specimens and not scientists at archaeological digs or field labs.

Please tell me: do you consider the collection of specimens to have been conducted in accord with any kind of scientific integrity/rigor? Comparable to the Denisovian finger and tooth you used as a supporting example? Give us the examples that are comparable please, so that we can evaluate the claim. Thx.

You are right, unfortunately , that DNA cannot prove a negative. however what it can do is produce the strongest yet repudiation of some of the "best" known evidence. each and every time a DNA test come back Bear, human, Yak, Cow, Llama, etc etc, it moves the needle farther and farther from plausible and closer and closer to riduculous! Normal people with reasonable deductive skills appreciate that information, it allows them to make informed judgements!
We already know what the true believers will do with this info. But i just love seeing these guys make incredible public claims, only to get shot in the butt time after time by the well performed magic of science!
CWB

Don't overestimate what the passing DNA fad will or will not accomplish. Bigfoot is more of a social/psychological phenomenon as opposed to a scientific question. Like religion, the adherents just won't care. It's already far beyond ridiculous.

I do agree it is fascinating to watch the public claims go down in flames, but even more fascinating how over half a century of that happening, bigfoot lives on and even becomes more firmly rooted in popular belief.

The examples we have of cult leaders loudly announcing the imminent arrival of God are legion. (When Prophecy Fails) With Christianity it has been two thousand years, and current adherents are just as convinced it will happensoon as ever before.