Skeptical Greg
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WGBH
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You just told my comments.
Why do you feel the need to post a private PM between us on a public forum? This is proof of your unethical behavior for all to see. I send you a PM telling you I am sorry about what happened to you and I abstained from it. Then you turn around and use it against me? For what? To try to cause problems for me at the SFB? Why would you want to do this to me? I have never tried to be anything but nice and understanding to you. This is what you feel I deserve?
What exactly is your agenda here Kit? Are you trying to crucify me here on the JREF? What for? For coming here to answer questions about my Bigfoot encounter? Why do I deserve to be treated this way and not some of the other people here such as Longtabber, who have shared their encounters?
To the rest of the membership here.
THIS is why this forum gets the reputation it gets. This is not being critical of my Bigfoot encounter or being scientific in the least.This thread was supposed to be about answering questions about Bigfoot encounters. This is a out and out personal attack on me. This is a personal attack on my friends.
It is things like this that give this forum it's unfair reputation.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
This is beginning to look like you know I haven't written anything insulting, incivil, and in breach of the MA here. It is a simple matter to quote where I have done what you claim. I would do so in minutes if the situation was reversed. Simple thing - you claim I was insulting and incivil to you. Show me the evidence and I will give you a very humble apology. I am confident you will not do this because I have made sure that while we are engaging in vigourous and lively debate, I'm not saying anything to you that is not appropriate for such as debate or making any ad homs to you. Many times I've complimented you, given words of support, or spoke in defense of you. This is not unlike what you did for me at the SFB and I feel happy to return the favour.
John, please just show me where I've been incivil to you so that I can properly apologize. I won't apologize for something someone is making up.
What am I doing? I'm pointing out how ironic it is that after I was banned that PGF thread went into a little JREF/skeptic bashfest with people making up all sorts of garbage. For example, Bill Munns and Melissa claiming that I was lying and making a skeptical fantasy when I said that Bill was a believer in Bigfoot and had decided the PGF was real long before he ever started an attempt at a photogrammetry study or showed up at the BFF and getting his creature suit analysis pinned.
News flash:
“While some have since claimed that the film is a hoax, longtime Hollywood special-effects creator Bill Munns said it would have been impossible in 1967 to fake a creature suit like the one depicted in the film.”
Theo Stein, Denver Post, January 14, 2001
Ding dong! Who's eating shoe now?
BTW, of course I enjoyed posting at the SFB. I liked debating with smart people like yourself and AlanF and the challenge of countering the poor arguments of people like Melissa in a way that was civil and respectful so as not to allow for accusations of ad homs (happened anyway). I also liked reviewing some of the more obscure things happening in Bigfootery in a quieter atmosphere and being in a place where I didn't have the largest skeptical online community in the world to back me up. I told people there that on a number of occasions.
This is simply not true. I have shown a couple of my posts from the SFB for a specific reason and made it perfectly I was doing so. I'd say about 99% of the posts I've made here contain no posts from the SFB. If you want to contend the point, I'll bring out the board stats and prove it. Most of what I've written you've simply refused to consider. That seems somewhat close-minded to me.
Yes, exactly. You said you saw a 9 x 6 ft (though you would have said 10ft tall) monster wood ape by the Pasquotank River from a deer stand after becoming disoriented and very groggy in 1982. Why is it any more likely that you saw what you believe you saw than Barry seeing a Reptoid? It's a simple question.
You say you saw something. Show me that it could not have been a sleep-related dream or hallucination or memory distortion, which is proven to happen all the time, and that it was nothing other than what you claim. Saying that it really happened simply because the situation and circumstances did not repeat themselves is an invalid argument.
Prove it. You are repeating yourself with no substantiation. This happens often when people no that have no substantiation to give. I would have proven my claim right from the get go and needed no prodding whatsoever. I called Lyndon an "internet thug". That was the one insult to another SFB member you will find from me. Show me even just one more, I challenge you. I predict you will not do this and effectively call it a waste of time. Backing up your claims is never a waste of time and will shut me up real quick (after my humble apology, of course).
Gobbledy-gook. Now you're just plain wrong. Who did I come to the forum to carry on a vendetta against? The first time I came to the board two years ago I refused to allow Sweaty to bait me with baggage from here regardless of his taunting that I was scared. And when I came back in April this year was I carrying on a vendetta from another forum? Absolutely not. I made my intentions perfectly clear. I'll post them for you if you if you continue to claim otherwise. Yes, I did engage in debate with Lyndon who was taunting me while explicitly breaking that rule #3 of yours. How's Lyndon doing? Still posting? Of course he is. He believes in Bigfoot, so he can get away with breaking the rules.
Let's have a boo at the rules, shall we? (of course I saved them for just such an occasion) My comments in pink:
SFB Rules of Engagement said:Information you need to know before you register for this forum. Please read carefully.
PURPOSE OF THIS FORUM: To "intelligently and respectfully" discuss/debate the bigfoot phenomenon. If you cannot be either this isn't the forum for you. Don't make it your mission here to convert the unwashed whichever side of the issue you are on. That's not your responsibility. (A-ha... So this could basically be used against anyone consistently deflates bad arguments by a Bigfoot enthusiast) You are only responsible for yourself and your own conduct. These rules apply to everyone across the board. If you think you are immune you are mistaken and your time here will be short lived. Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Read them, abide by them.
Rule #1: To participate in this forum you must be able to debate your point of view of the issues politely and respectfully without name calling, accusatory comments, or confrontational posts.
(Ah, yes. Confrontational posts. So Melissa and friends can basically apply this to any post explaining how they were mistaken about something.)
Rule #2: DO NOT vigilante moderate this forum. The staff here will assist you with problems.
(Actually, I think I did this once when I mentioned to someone something that was against the rules.)
Rule #3: DO NOT come to this forum to carry on a vendetta you are engaged in on another forum. This includes cross posting from this forum, or from other forums.
Yeah, that's funny because that is exactly what Lyndon did and groupie Melissa was cheerleading him for it. Melissa freaked when Lyndon said he he gave up and said he didn't want to stick around. That was what she and Washingtonian used as an excuse to say that members were leaving because of me. Yes, a member showed up to try and carry on a grudge against me and made to leave when he wasn't successful at what he was trying to do.
Rule #4: If you cannot get along with someone, or entertain their point of view, ignore them. That's what the ignore feature is for.
Rule #5: DO NOT engage trolls. Do NOT engage in troll like behavior.
Rule #6: Skeptics are welcome here, however, if you are unwilling to be objective and entertain alternate points of view this isn't the place for you.
ROFL! Skeptics are welcome, if they can keep relatively quiet and not effectively deflate bad arguments by Melissa and friends.
Rule #7: Believers are welcome here, just know there are skeptics here and everyone will NOT embrace your opinion. If you are unwilling to discuss alternate points of view this isn't the place for you either.
(This is fall-down hilarious. Thread: Freeman cast collection> alternate point of view> casts by admitted hoaxer are in fact hoaxes> Melissa forbids such discussion in that thread. Scary but true.)
Rule #8: Check your attitude at the door. This isn't the place for it.
(Read: don't disagree with Melissa and friends.)
Rule #9: If someone doesn't agree with you, they aren't stupid or wrong. Don't treat them as if they are.
(Wow. If someone doesn't agree with you, they aren't wrong. That's a very interesting rule. Gotta keep it nice and vague for when the time comes to kick skeptics out of the sandbox.)
Rule #10: Speak to others as you would have them speak to you. If you wouldn't want the tone or attitude of the post you want to make directed at you, do not direct it at others.
Rule #11: Agree to disagree. If you are at an impasse with others agree to disagree and move on.
Rule #12: DO NOT argue with the admin or moderation staff over closed topics, or broken rules. We aren't the problem. (Two week suspension for this no exceptions)
(This is the one I know I broke and said so on the SFB. I asked melissa why she deleted posts that were completely civil, respectful, and on topic.)
Rule #13: DO NOT post for a member who has been banned or is on moderator preview. If they want to speak they can do it through the staff. (Two week suspension for this for first offense.)
Rule #14: NO ONE using this board may use its PM feature or the forums to send mass messages or create posts which are in reference to gossip or other off board topics. If you are found to be doing such a thing, you will be banned immediately.
(Is that a new one? What does that mean? Don't make big posts or posts which say things like "Bill Munns believed in Bigfoot and the PGF before he came to the BFF"?)
CLOSED THREADS: When a topic is closed DO NOT start another to continue the same conversation without notifying an admin first. The original thread was closed for a reason. DO NOT start another topic to complain about a topic that has been closed. (Two weeks suspensions for this so read carefully)
TOPICS THAT ARE NOT FOR DISCUSSION: Religion, politics, supernatural/trans dimensional/time-travel/wormhole/UFO theories. This isn't that kind of forum.
These are not suggestions, guidelines or friendly advice. These are the rules of the forum and they are non negotiable. Abide by them and you'll be successful here. Ignore them and your stay here will be a short one.
PENALTIES:
First offense: Warning level increase with explanation.
Second Offense: Warning level increase with explanation.
Third Offense: Warning level increase with explanation.
Fourth Offense: Suspension of 2(two) weeks duration and possible moderation review of posts indefinitely upon your return.
Fifth and Final Offense: Permanent banishment.
(Melissa and friends couldn't even follow their own protocols to have me thrown out.)
Trash talking or derogatory commentary about this forum or its members and staff on another forum/message board won't change anything here and won't endear you to the staff of this forum.
Don't expect to be welcomed with open arms here if you're running this forum into the ground elsewhere. Membership and posting on this forum is a privilege not a right.
All new Member Accounts are placed on 7 day Moderator Preview.
The Owner of The Search For Bigfoot and its Staff reserve the right to ban or place accounts on moderator preview, or take any other action deemed necessary, at anytime.
(Particularly if you are an articulate and informed skeptic.)
This forum has a ZERO TOLERANCE for SPAMMERS.
If you are registering, please understand your account must be manually approved by a member of the staff. This process can take up to 24 hours. Please be patient and watch for the approval in your email box. I know it takes a while, but please bare with us, this measure is for those who want to enjoy the forum, without all the drama from people coming here to cause problems.
Thank you.
When you have rules written the way Melissa has them, she can basically get away with whatever she likes. It is her sandbox, afterall.
OT like when I countered Lyndon's arguments in a PGF thread that the number of videos of shark attacks on humans had relevance to the lack of unambiguous videos of Bigfoot? Or OT like Melissa harping about desertyeti in a PGF thread? I guess it all depends on how the head of the sandbox calls it.
1) What exactly is unethical about my posting the contents of that PM and removing your comments. Comments that you reiterated a number of times in-thread. Just like right here:
There's nothing unethical about that at all.
2) I am not trying to crucify you or make problems for you at the SFB. I appreciate our dialogue. You have to understand that we're going to vigourously disgree about certain things but that doesn't mean I'm attacking you. I strongly disagree with some of the things done by Melissa and friends. Not everything. I'm only trying to get you to recognize that not everything they do or say makes perfect sense. Think about the people that showed you some of the questionable things done by Biscardi. I am only showing you that when people flip out and toss skeptics who engage debate in a civil manner, forbid discussion about things like an admitted hoaxer while condemning another, freak out and run away from shadows and porcupines, etc. that these are people that aren't helping the credibility of people like yourself.
I know how much the culty behaviour bothers you so I'm trying to appeal to that part of you. I know I can't convince you that you didn't see Bigfoot but I'm motivated and enthusiastic about getting you to debate the possibilities with me. Maybe it would be better if I didn't direct any SFB/ABS discussion to you. I will continue discussing it on this forum, however, so please don't take it personally.
3) I am not making a personal attack on you. You need to try and not be so defensive in that way. Am I criticizing people you are friends with? Yes, absolutely. It's not personal for me and if you can't see that, I can't help you. If I wanted to get dirty and personal about Melissa, I would be taking a completely different avenue, and that's not a place I'm going to go. Tell you what, from now on I'll address you about your sighting only in this thread. Fair enough?
4) I haven't asked Longtabber anything about his experiences yet simply because I haven't had time to get to them yet. It's not like he's been discussing them for long here.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
None took "leap of faith". They only had jump of intuition, followed that intuition and tried to provide evidence for it. A "leap of faith" means they would jump to conclusion without any step in the middle.
Even if you pretend their intuition was indeed a "leap of faith", they did not do by trusting other people words. This is simply a non-sequitur to the debate of BF "worth of witness testimony". A better argument would be to see how law enforcement see testimony and all the study which were done on it. After reading that you can only come to one conclusion : testimony are not worth much.
Bottom line is that scoffic is used as a derogatory term for skeptic, because some people have a pet theory to which there is no evidence whatsoever, and since they cannot provide evidence they would rather just try to deride/insult the skeptic and hope their message get derided at the same moment. That tactic only really work with other believer.
But the usage of derogatory term is not limited to one side. A similar example would be "bleever" (derogatory term for believer) "footers" and I pass other term which are about as derogatory and bad for any rethorical debate on both side.
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
I'm respondng here to this post by mikeyx as it doesn't relate to the MABRC:
I agree, Mike. I think it's very important to give proper credit. I make it a habit to do so. As a musician and producer I know what it's like to have my work and ideas ripped off by people with less scruples.
That's why I think that it's pretty lame that Melissa Hovey's Bigfoot enthusiast group, the American Bigfoot Society, are being very lame when plastered on every page of their website they've ripped off famed Canadian painter and naturalist, Robert Bateman's painting, Sasquatch. They've chopped out Bateman's signature and not on a single page acknowledge the artist responsible for the image they've taken. That is really low, if you ask me.
It's like, hey, footers. Why don't you guys stick a sock in it with the holier-than-thou tripe and try actually employing the ethics you complain so much about.
That comment is not directed at you, Mike. I only know that your an SFB admin and nothing about if you're with the ABS. If you are you might want to ask Melissa or someone to give Bateman proper credit so she doesn't look like an idiot when talking about proper behaviour.
I agree, Mike. I think it's very important to give proper credit. I make it a habit to do so. As a musician and producer I know what it's like to have my work and ideas ripped off by people with less scruples.
That's why I think that it's pretty lame that Melissa Hovey's Bigfoot enthusiast group, the American Bigfoot Society, are being very lame when plastered on every page of their website they've ripped off famed Canadian painter and naturalist, Robert Bateman's painting, Sasquatch. They've chopped out Bateman's signature and not on a single page acknowledge the artist responsible for the image they've taken. That is really low, if you ask me.
It's like, hey, footers. Why don't you guys stick a sock in it with the holier-than-thou tripe and try actually employing the ethics you complain so much about.
That comment is not directed at you, Mike. I only know that your an SFB admin and nothing about if you're with the ABS. If you are you might want to ask Melissa or someone to give Bateman proper credit so she doesn't look like an idiot when talking about proper behaviour.
desertgal
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Unethical, and, in this case, illegal. That painting doesn't fall under "fair use". It's a copyrighted work by the artist. Just. plain. wrong.
I imagine these people would scream like banshees if the situation were reversed. I guess theft is okay as long as you have a "reason".
WGBH
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Unethical, and, in this case, illegal. That painting doesn't fall under "fair use". It's a copyrighted work by the artist. Just. plain. wrong.
I imagine these people would scream like banshees if the situation were reversed. I guess theft is okay as long as you have a "reason".
That web site was created years ago by the former president of the group who is no longer a member. We no longer use that web site. We have a new site and the artwork on our new site was created personally by a ABS member.
WGBH
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What are you talking about? Mikeyx is not a SFB admin. Are you speaking to someone else? Nevermind I know who it is now
Again. That is a old ABS web site that is no longer in use by the new re-booted ABS.
Last I checked this thread was called "Bigfoot- anybody seen one"?
I think we should start a new thread called " Bash the ABS"
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desertgal
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And? If the former president created that old website, then she still would have been the one who used the copyrighted painting without permission or credit. That she has since moved on doesn't change that-just means she's no longer responsible for adding a credit to the artist on the old website.
For that matter, where did I say "she"? Whoever made it was wrong. I didn't single out a specific person.
(And before you remind me that I am off topic, I'm simply responding to your post.)
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WGBH
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So take that up with HIM. We have no control of that web site and no longer use it as I stated.
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desertgal
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Thing is, as kit said, if the former president initially used the image without permission or credit, it was unethical, and, in this instance, illegal. That she has moved on doesn't change that. Period. If the former president is calling other people unethical, then that's hypocritical.
I'm not taking it up with anyone. I'm not the copyright police. But, when you are an author or an artist, and someone steals your work without permission or at least having the decency to find and give credit, it sucks. That was my point. Is that so hard to understand?
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WGBH
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But that is not what Kit said. Is that so hard to understand? He and yourself blamed the current ABS for something that we had nothing to do with and a web page we no longer use.
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Blackdog
Critical Thinker
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I beg to differ, maybe you should PM mikeyx and ask him yourself.
realpaladin
Master Poster
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So, anyone seen one?
WGBH
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Sure, you want to discuss it?
desertgal
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Wow. Am I supposed to be psychic and somehow know, before you clarified Kit's statement, that you and whomever were no longer associated with the current ABS? I'm sorry, I forgot to turn on my divining powers today.
Whomever created the image without credit or permission was unethical. Whomever is keeping it up there without credit or permission is unethical. If they are separate people or one and the same, still unethical. If the former president didn't create the image, that's all you had to say: 'She didn't create the image." Saying that she is no longer a member doesn't mean she didn't create the image before she resigned.
You're criticizing me for not being psychic when you weren't clear. Great.
WGBH
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Or maybe you just charged into something you knew nothing about with guns blazing?
mikeyx
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you're jumping aroud your facts here a bit kit, pertaining to me.
Yes, I am an admin on sfb, I'm also the root admin on the Nesra forum as well as ISRIN, but I had no role in your ban, I abstained, also abs and sfb are seperate entities and I am only a member of the abs, and had no role in the site's design so I am a bit confused as to why you're dragging a quote from the MABRC thread over here just t include me, apples and oranges in my opinion. Hope that clarifies.
WGBH
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Thanks I did.
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