WGBH
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Are you serious?
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Are you serious?
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
You may wish to take mayaka's posts with a grain -- make that a pound -- of salt. He delights in making overstatements, miscalculations and outright errors so that others can come behind him and correct him.
In short, not all primates mate whilst howling at the top of their lungs. If BF is a real animal, it's at least plausible that it might get away with silent boinking.
EDIT: However, what is not plausible, as kitakaze has pointed out, is that the rangers and curates of a manicured public park -- even one covering hundreds of square miles -- could not possibly be ignorant of the presence of a breeding population of giant stinking wood apes which 1) show little fear of human observation or encounters, 2) need upwards of 10,000 calories per day and 3) hurl sticks and stones at humans (contradictory points, but I'm just going by the anecdotal accounts). Zoologists, botanists and bird watchers, not to mention recreational visitors, would have seen these animals on many occasions and their existence would have been verified time and again.
In short, not all primates mate whilst howling at the top of their lungs. If BF is a real animal, it's at least plausible that it might get away with silent boinking.
EDIT: However, what is not plausible, as kitakaze has pointed out, is that the rangers and curates of a manicured public park -- even one covering hundreds of square miles -- could not possibly be ignorant of the presence of a breeding population of giant stinking wood apes which 1) show little fear of human observation or encounters, 2) need upwards of 10,000 calories per day and 3) hurl sticks and stones at humans (contradictory points, but I'm just going by the anecdotal accounts). Zoologists, botanists and bird watchers, not to mention recreational visitors, would have seen these animals on many occasions and their existence would have been verified time and again.
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Your skepticism is encouraging. I very rarely say this but I think it is actually literally impossible that Bigfoots could be in Salt Fork feeding, breeding, and all that unknown to science. I would like to hear some hypothetical model of how it would be possible.
So you don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP, which is a good thing, but just out of curiosity I have a question...
The ABS Salt Fork excursion consisted of 12 individuals from various parts of the U.S. coming together their for a type of zoological research. How much money in total would you say was spent by ABS members for that excursion?
Yes, black bears are an extremely rare occurence in SFSP. It's like a big deal. You know what is neat about bears? They have these just insanely sensitive noses that allow them to seek out food sources from very far away and buried in the ground. They have the wicked claws and sharp teeth that allow them to scrounge out things to eat from unlikely places. Bigfoot doesn't have that. No badass claws, crazy noses, or big sharp canines. Where do you suppose a clan of Bigfoots is getting its 12,000+ calories while remaining undetected by park officials and staff? You know, because this is something that has to happen to break into the realm of possibility.
The ABS doesn't believe the encounter reports from SFSP? They don't believe Eric Altman had a sighting at the handicapped picnic area? That is neither what they said (Billy Willard's words about why you guys were there) or what was written in the thread at the SFB. What the heck were they doing there?
And you don't think the Bigfoots are approaching people? You yourself gave me an encounter report featuring a ten foot tall - that's 10 feet - Bigfoot that approached two armed people with 12 gauge shotgun and rifle only 30 feet away.
Ho * ly * Crap *
http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267
And yet you're basically just saying "nuh-uh" without offering anything of substance in debate of a conclusion i've made based on the facts of the situation of SFSP. You don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP because you haven't seen it but how is it possible that Bigfoot could be inhabiting a highly used recreational area for people and families and officials just be standing there with there hands in their pockets. Where is the failure of basic common sense here? Under what circumstances could a species of monster wood ape live in SFSP undetected by the people whose jobs are managing the park? I really want to see if you can mentally kind of work this out.
I hope you liked it. I enjoyed writing it. It is colourful and whacky but what it also is is exactly the sort of thing we should be seeing if Bigfoot as described by Bigfoot enthusiasts is living in SFSP and is in fact a real primate species. It's humour borne from common sense about the way things should really be.
I often get the sense with Bigfoot enthusiasts that they've become so distracted by the community aspects of their sub-culture that they somewhere along the way decided not to think things through. It's almost like they kind of know on some fundamental level that Bigfoot doesn't really exist and allow themselves to just continue playing Woods & Wildmen for the fun of it. I don't think they really think of Bigfoot as being an actual real animal. It's basically like some figure or manifestation of a philosophy they have. It's the pursuit of a mystery and things don't need to really make sense because it's fun.
The perfect poster for this is Don Keating being filmed by Nancy in SFSP kneeling over what they think is a possible Bigfoot print in the grass and dirt by the handicapped picnic area with a magnifying glass and little flag thinking he's found dermals and then losing them. The ground surface is literally physically impossible to retain detail as fine as dermatoglyphics and these guys are gathered around this thing giddy with excitement. It's like, yep, that's Bigfootery.
Take this video and pause it at 00:51 and have a look where they are. The idea that Bigfoot is on the loose their is about as nuts as the idea that there is dermals in the grass and leaves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auy7Z5pW3D8&feature=related
Crowlogic
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No argument from me that park personnel would be versed in the local flora and fauna. No argument either about west of the Rockies either. I happen to have logged a great deal of time in the Adirondacks on official research and it convinced me that at least in that region don't even tease yourself with the idea of Bigfoot.
However after at the end of the day no amount of sarcasm, logic, humor, understanding and logic is going to change the fact that WGBH has his sighting to come to terms with. I'm of the opinion that he'll either find what he's looking for or the search will go on until the weight of negative evidence resets the imperative from finding confirmation of what he saw one of to sometimes we encounter things that are off the radar and remain off the radar. But I think he needs the hands on approach he's engaged in.
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
You may be right. I cannot speak to what WGBH "needs" in an emotional or psychological sense. That is not the purview of this thread, this site or my involvement in it. I can only assess his and others' accounts, examine the information they offer versus other information I have memorized or at my fingertips, and apply whatever degree of critical thinking I'm capable of, in order to try and discern the facts.
In this case, the facts appear to indicate that WGBH imagined, dreamed or misinterpreted what he saw 27 years ago, if he indeed saw anything at all and did not hallucinate it out of whole cloth, and that he is currently engaged in a live-action roleplaying game involving giant stinking wood apes and silly persons running amok in a manicured park 6 miles from the nearest township.
In this case, the facts appear to indicate that WGBH imagined, dreamed or misinterpreted what he saw 27 years ago, if he indeed saw anything at all and did not hallucinate it out of whole cloth, and that he is currently engaged in a live-action roleplaying game involving giant stinking wood apes and silly persons running amok in a manicured park 6 miles from the nearest township.
WGBH
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Nope, I'm done looking at the silly youtube videos you seem to LOVE. Find someone else who cares, I don't.
LONGTABBER PE
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Yes John, I'm sad to say he is serious.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
To be clear, Salt Fork is not hundreds of square miles. We can easily see this when we actually look at it from above...
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=salt fork state park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Salt Fork State Park is 17,229 acres. That's 70 km2 and 27.03 square miles. John thinks it is really vast because Billy Willard drove him around it in a car and they thought how easy it would be for Bigfoot to hide there.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Sweaty really likes to tease himself.
I think it's admirable. What I really think John needs is counselling with a qualified professional therapist and to talk to experts on the Great Dismal Swamp about the possibility of a species of monster wood ape living in there.
I think that would really be grabbing the bull by the horns. I'm not sure how serious John is about doing what's right about dealing with his problems. We simply can't compete with the community of friends he has in Bigfootery. That's a club I don't see John turning away from and I don't feel interested in trying to get him to do it. That will only make him defensive and resistent. Once John starts talking to the appropriate professionals about his experience I feel he will really have started down the path to liberating himself from what I think has been a debilitating fantasy.
I of course will change my thinking on the subject when somebody gives me reliable evidence of a 10 foot giant that will come 30 feet close to men with guns. Is it unreasonable to expect that there really should be some?
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kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
$540 for accommodations, however much was spent on food, gas, and any flights taken. It has to be in the thousands among the twelve of you, I would think. All the expenses you guys went through and effort transporting gear to squatch in a place literally infested with Bigfooter yeehaws. I think the best thing is that you guys all got to meet each other and strengthen your friendships and community. It's too bad it wasn't in some place that could conceivably harbour monster wood apes unknown to science.
Oh, c'mon, John. You're a smart guy. That is just lame. It's like you didn't read what I wrote or even bother to try thinking about it. The Bigfoots are not going to be able to do what the bears do and if they do do what the bears do, bingo bango, they've been found. You yourself noted that it is a very rare occurence for a black bear to be in Salt Fork. I checked and found pretty much nothing. The only reference I could find to a black bear in Salt Fork was here:
"A pair of bald eagles nests somewhere near the lodge, a park naturalist said. Another employee told me a black bear had been spotted in the park."
Apparently bears that have been in the park have wound up at dumpsters. If Bigfoots are in Salt Fork, they are certainly not doing what bears are doing. You write "omnivorous foraging" casually like you haven't even thought about it. Bears have these excellent noses and they can eat all sorts of junk. You said...
"Bears are sighted rarely in SFSP. Yes, you are correct the theory is they do feed out of the dumpsters when they can. The problem is the park is not that crowded in the winter except for possibly the Lodge. So the dumpsters are not full of food."
Huh? We're talking about Ohio so it's not like any bear that somehow wandered in to the park would be farting around there in the winter. Dude, that is how the bears can survive. They go into a hardcore hyperphagia in the fall where they eat up to 20,000 kcal/day getting ready for winter torpor:
"Black bears increase their caloric intake from 8000 kcal/day in the summer to between 15,000 and 20,000 kcal/day in the fall to build up a large enough fat store to survive the the winter (Nelson, 1980)."
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/animalphysiology/websites/2006/mineri/page 5.htm
Any bear that finds itself in Salt Fork, particularly in the fall is going to be making a beeline for human food sources like dumpsters. The thing that will help them make that beeline is that fantastic nose. They will literally be following their noses, which are seven times more powerful than that of a dog's, towards human food. They have those great big snouts which are there for a reason. Their nasal mucosa area is about 100 times larger than in humans and they can smell a meal more than 1 km away. Bigfoots do not have big snouts with such noses nor any of the other powerful specialized tools and adaptions for survival in North America that bears have. Any Bigfoot that is maintaining a species in Salt Fork is going to most likely have a nose with a poorly developed sense of smell like a gorilla or an orangutan (or a human) and do a lot of unguided wandering to find its food which will inevitably bring it in contact with the people who operate and manage the park. Basically the idea that they could find 12,000+ calories per day and not be found is totally insane.
Let's say you're this guy...
(Which just happens to be an image taken in Dellroy, Carroll County, Ohio which is only one county away from Guernsey County where Salt Fork is. The image was taken by this guy and more info can be found here.)
And you find yourself in one of these places...
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/sfsp.html
Bigfoot mode...
Oh man, me starving. Me need some food and me got hairy babe and littlefoot to feed. What are me going to eat? Oh boy, can you smell that? Smells like somebody's grilling some brats. Holy cow is me tummy rumbling. Oh, jeez, look over there. That naked puny one is throwing out a box of soggy donuts that got rained on into the dumpster. Hey, me not picky for that. Me need 12,000 calories a day and that will be great help.
...Arrgh! Nope. No way. Me must have will power. Me must resist. Me can not risk being shooten by boomstick of naked puny ones or have me soul stolen by scary flashing box. Me must go eat some sticks and bugs. Me hope me can eat enough sticks and bugs to keep enough strength up to throw some rocks, bang on some trees, and make some more abstract interpretive art structures in the woods tomorrow. Me wish me had super nose and some sharp claws like those smarmy, self-righteous bears. It's a hard knock life for me Bigfoot. Oh well, at least me have me stick.
1) It's about people seeing Bigfoots and the reasons for ABS showing up in Salt Fork where they think they might have seen Bigfoot in the form of eyeshine.
2) Eric said he saw a conical-shaped head and shoulders 4 to 5 feet wide. What did he see if not a Bigfoot? You guys did take the possibility that he really did see a Bigfoot there to bring members of the ABS from all over the country to do their first expedition there. If it was me I would say that Eric and Mike were bumbling in the woods and freaking themselves out and if anyone disagreed and wanted me to spend hard-earned money to go to Salt Fork and join the Bigfooter gong show, I'd tell them to have a nice trip.
That's just me and anyone who thinks Eric Altman's sighting was a good justification to come to the handicapped picnic area of Salt Fork can scrutinize his story for themselves...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI
We can always check what's on the video from the cameras strapped on trees around the park in the Sasquatch Triangle...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXQV87cOJrE
A-ha... Deer, deer, deer.... guy in camo with gun... deer... guy with gun.. Ooo! Is that Bigfoot? Oops, dear again.
3) What kind of factual verification can you offer to verify your claim that "sightings have dropped off significantly because of the increased human activity in the park"? It's really easy to just write but can you back that up with facts? You know, something like a footer database showing a recent big drop-off in SFSP sighting.
Am I jumpy? I don't think so. Are you retracting the 10 ft Bigfoot in NC with the Bigfoot coming close to armed humans sighting as being helpful in supporting your 9 x 6ft Bigfoot in NC coming close to armed human sighting?
By all means, be my guest.
I find it strange that I find myself pointing out to a moderator and now administrator of an internet forum (SFB) about being mindful of the MA of the board they are posting on. While cursing is allowed at your board, it is not allowed here at the JREF, especially stepping around the autocensor. I don't particularly care at all if you do but I just thought you should know that for future refence and avoid getting mod warnings.
Anyway, I disagree. Very few Bigfoot enthusiasts seem to employ thinking that they actually truly consider Bigfoot to be a real animal. It's like they allow for Bigfoot to behave in a way that no animal possibly could just to maintain the suspension of disbelief. It's like they will do mental gymnastics to do it if necessary but more often then not they'll just opt to be lazy thinkers and say something like "they probably do it just like a bear does".
1) That's like a joke or something, right? I can't know any facts about the SFSP without having been there? You mean the following websites fill my office with lies?:
Ohio Department of Natural Resources Salt Fork State Park information website
ODNR Division of Wildlife - Salt Fork Wildlife Area information website
You mean I can not ascertain any valuable knowledge regarding the possibility of Bigfoot being in the SFSP by looking directly at it via satellite imaging with the ability to zoom in so close anywhere I want so as to be able to make out individual cars and trees?:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=salt fork state park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
And this is coming from a guy who has been living under the oppression of PTSD from an experience of a sighting that may or may not have happened for over 27 years without ever having talked to an wildlife and environment experts from the area where it happened?
These are yes/no questions, BTW. Kind of like did you just write something horrendously silly and poorly thought? Yes. Yes, you did.
2) Then I ask you to proceed to mentally work it out for me. Please go ahead and explain exactly how "the park and surrounding areas could be used as a habitat for this undiscovered animal" without being identified by science.
For your reference...
Highly used: Here you go...
Undetected: Unconfirmed, unverified, unknown. Known factually beyond the beliefs of Bigfoot enthusiast park visitors like Don Keating whom the park can thank for singlehandedly increasing park visitation and increased profits with large yearly seminars. Potentially aggressive monster wood apes are unconfirmed as maintaining a breeding population with in SFSP by officials and staff. What threat this represents to park visitors remains unassessed.
1) I'm looking right at a guy kneeling in the grass and leaves with a magnifiying glass saying he found dermals and then oops, proceeds to not be able to find what he was looking at for several minutes. I am fairly certain we are not looking at any kind of reliable evidence of Bigfoot in SFSP.
2) I don't need any experience looking at tracks when I am DJing in Tokyo night clubs, just playing them.
I do find it just a little weird that you are questioning my experience in the woods. Especially when you know where I am know (which is where I grew up). I'm not trying to be mean, it's just you yourself admit your being inexperienced. I'm sure you haven't forgotten the Vancouver Island pictures I shared. I have plenty of experience looking at animal tracks of all kinds. I only get nervous when I see bear or cougar tracks. Half of all fatal cougar attacks on humans have been on this island, don't you know? I do not get nervous when I see imprints such as these from SFSP:
I don't know how anyone looks at something like that and thinks it's real without their head imploding.
That's ketchup, you see. Ketchup. How interestingly it has been so artfully placed.
You see, Bigfoot, having connections to UFO's, has the ability to just simply vapourize any vegetation beneath its foot.
How silly of me to doubt these people...
LONGTABBER PE
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I gotta admit- those pictures are obvious frauds
RayG
Master Poster
WGBH
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I agree. But these pictures are not being pushed by myself or any of my affiliated groups as being legit.
WGBH
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Please clarify this statement. Are you infering that I am a liar Ray?
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
Easy now. I think that's the over-defensiveness you've picked up along the way. Ray simply means having seen something and believe without question to be what you thought you saw does not mean that is the actual truth. You know, like big, freaky spiders and Reptoids. He's not insinuating you are a liar at all but rather simply that it has not been ruled out that you were mistaken. Know what I mean?
WGBH
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Kitakaze,
I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.
If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.
I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.
If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.
Cainkane1
Philosopher
My biggest problem with the sasquatch thing is this.
Why avoid contact with humans? Gorillas don't, chimpanzees don't, Baboons don't so why Sasquatch? If this hugh hairy walking upright creature does exist and if it were discovered it would probably be the best thing that ever happened to it. It would be protected and studied. It would be fed and cared for. Its habitat would be protected and there would be many other perks from associating with humans.
I've seen park rangers feeding wolves so why not drop some fruit and nuts on Sasquatch? Medical care man I better quit talking.
Why avoid contact with humans? Gorillas don't, chimpanzees don't, Baboons don't so why Sasquatch? If this hugh hairy walking upright creature does exist and if it were discovered it would probably be the best thing that ever happened to it. It would be protected and studied. It would be fed and cared for. Its habitat would be protected and there would be many other perks from associating with humans.
I've seen park rangers feeding wolves so why not drop some fruit and nuts on Sasquatch? Medical care man I better quit talking.
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
That's unfortunate and I think you're over-reacting but that's your prerogative. I don't think I've insulted you or your Bigfoot enthusiast club in anyway. I have on numerous occasions given you praise,defended you, and your friends. I think the idea of going squatching in Salt Fork is silly but I think you're big enough to handle a debate like that. Maybe you guys had more or less information than I do. It's not impossible. If you'd like an out from the discussion or it simply irritates you, I can understand but please don't make it seem like I'm being harsh or personal. That's not my style. I don't think I've said anything to you that is unreasonable or any rational thinking person would not think of under the given circumstances. Please point out where I have, and I will apologize.
Or you can bail. Your choice.
ETA: And please point out my junk internet science. I don't like using bad information and am always grateful to anyone who can help me get rid of it.
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Drewbot
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Have you told a doctor about your Bigfoot encounter?
What did he/she say when you told them about bigfoot?
Are you treated for Depression?
When did this treatment start? Were you treated before the bigfoot encounter?
WGBH
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If you feel like opening that can of worms, and I really don't, I would sugest you google Bigfoot Habituation cases. Then start a different thread about it.
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