Moderated Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

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Well, the term 'credible' certainly leaves room for argument.

No, it doesn't. That's another example of why you really are a bigfooter after all.

And heck, it would explain why I've met people that swear on their mother's grave they've seen one!

Lying would explain it a lot better. But for some reason you believe liars are more rare than bigfoot.
 
Sure...something could be out there. You just need to get good evidence or a good picture of it.

For instance, if you are on horseback with a camera and you encounter bigfoot, and get thrown off your horse, and your buddy's horse will follow bigfoot, you should probably hand the camera to your buddy and have him ride up closer and film the bigfoot.

After all, he knows how to use the camera, and he has a horse that isn't too spooked.

In fact, he's riding after the bigfoot anyway...yet somehow staying behind a guy who is on foot...
 
There is no reason for personal attacks. Please keep it civil and on topic. Since the topic is not the other posters, we shouldn't have any more of that, should we?
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
New Hampshire regulates Bigfoot hoaxes. ACLU aids hoaxer " suit."http://mobile.boston.com/ae/movies/articles/2011/03/08/bigfoot_suit_nh_is_stomping_on_civil_liberties/
 
We see yet again another perfectly clear representation of bigfoot. The quality of these things never fails to impress. How is it that anyone denies the obvious reality of sasquatch; please send your donation to the bigfoot organization of your choice so that this important research can continue.
 
We see yet again another perfectly clear representation of bigfoot. The quality of these things never fails to impress. How is it that anyone denies the obvious reality of sasquatch; please send your donation to the bigfoot organization of your choice so that this important research can continue.

That one was much too obvious...you need to work on your writing skills if you want to keep up the facade...
 
(Not sure that every instance has been disproven, actually, I'm fairly certain there are instances that yet remain unexplained).

you didn't name a single one.

Remember how great the missing airplane story was? That didn't seem to faze you though.

Asking for scientific papers proving bigfoot is not in certain grid coordinates - wow. There's no scientific papers on the absence of the tooth fairy or unicorns either.

But on ya go! So now throw out as "evidence" cases you are fairly certain are unexplained.

So name them.
 
Hi Folks.

Not sure why some have reverted to the namecalling, but in the message board world we all have experienced what that means.

I shall try to address some of the comments made, but have a question first.

What exactly IS a bigfooter? It's been thrown around and I'm not exactly sure what it means, though I have an idea and I think perhaps that it means that, no matter what, I'm no longer credible in a debate?

Moving on.

Missing airplanes:

http://www.adn.com/2010/09/04/1440036/reward-offered-for-finding-missing.html

Is this the area of the ice fields?

http://poppypundit.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/those-other-missing-airplanes/

Showing that other airplanes were found during the Fosset search. This can show the argument on both sides, however, I would like to show that for some reason, large search parties were unable to locate these wreckages during the original searches.

Someone asked me to provide some examples of sightings and experiences that have not been disproven. I didn't originally provide specific examples b/c there are tens of thousands of them. Here are a few I found in a 30 second internet search. From last year...

Grayson County, Virginia – March, 2010 – 9:30 p.m.

A husband and wife, with another woman and a child, were traveling north on Rte 89 in Grayson County, Virginia when they saw the creature. The creature disappeared when he spotted them. They describe him to the police as having a black hairy body and around seven feet tall

Grants Pass, Oregon – February 24, 2010

An individual returning from Grants Pass, heading for Eureka, CA, just before dark spotted a large, dark animal crossing the road. He walked upright, fast, and on two legs. The creatures face was human with caveman like features. It was covered in black hair, hefty in build, and over nine feet tall.

Leeds, Maine – February-March 2010

Weird creature spotted in the midst of boggy lands, called Turner Triangle in Androscoggin County, Maine. No description was given.

Collier County, Florida. Early afternoon on January 18, 2010

Two friends were fishing in Picayne Stand State forest. They were walking down a trail and were brought up short when an ape stepped out of the forest. They said they saw the animal before he saw them. They backed away slowly, looked back, and saw the animal watching them from behind a tree. The animal posed no threat and seemed just as curious about them as they were about him. No mention of height or physical appearance was given.

Bexar County, Texas – December 1, 2009 – 6:30 a.m.

Responding to a 911 call, a law official went to the area the caller described. It was a wooded area with a few sub-divisions and shopping malls. Four tracks were found in the area, about thirteen and a half inches long and depressed deeply into the ground. Pictures were taken to verify prints found.

Escambia County, Florida – November 21st and 15th, 2010 – 6:00 a.m.

Individual was out hunting squirrels in Escambia County and began to walk into the woods. While walking, this individual heard a low, guttural sound, almost like a Native American dialect. He heard this sound for about ten to fifteen seconds, and then heard it again a little later.

On the 25th, He returned with his oldest daughter; again, to hunt squirrels. While in the area, they both heard someone walking. They said it sounded like another man.

Webster County, West Virginia – October 27, 2010 – one a.m.

Wooded area – A man and woman were awoken by a very strong smell; foul, like sour milk. Strong enough to keep them from getting back to sleep. The woman said she saw a shadow walking across the porch, blocking the porch light. All of these sightings were reported to interested parties and investigated. A foul smell like sour milk or sulfur, body covered in black hair, seven to nine feet tall, walked upright, large footprints, and ape-like features were the most common descriptions of the animal.

Now, moving on to fossil history. Perhaps we aren't looking in the right area for the fossils? By most peoples' arguments on here, this NORTH AMERICAN PRIMATE never existed until 2 years ago. Take special note where the remains were found as well as the scientific communities' theory on migration. I think the 'matter-of-fact' type statements about fossil records should perhaps be ratcheted back as in fact, there are primate fossils still being discovered in North America. To me, at this point, the fossil record argument has been significantly damaged.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080303-american-primate.html

I think folks shold be careful when making such absolute statements b/c when one can find exceptions it does indeed call into question the accuracy of other statements made.

Transitioning over to talk about the 'millions' of people that are allegedly in the woods at this very second with cameras drawn in extreme backcountry where this creature allegedly resides in the PNW. Well. Think about that.

Millions....3 million in the backcountry of OR/WA/Norhtern CA? Really? With cameras drawn to get a photo of a fleeing animal? Just think about it. 3 million people hiking with cameras ON, FOCUSED TO A SPECIFIC POINT, and AIMED? I won't hang my hat on that hypothesis.
 
What exactly IS a bigfooter?

In my experience, this term is used most often to describe people with an interest in the bigfoot phenomenon, and specifically those who are convinced that there is a population of real, live bigfoots in North America, right now. Here on the JREF, the term is often used as a pejorative, in that it stresses the logical fallacies and illogical apologetics people employ to prop up their belief in the aforementioned real, live bigfoots.

Someone asked me to provide some examples of sightings and experiences that have not been disproven.
I'm not sure what you think is the significance of a string of anecdotal accounts. Imagine taking every one you posted and substituting the word "unicorn" for the various "big, hairy, bipedal creature" descriptions. Would they lead you to the conclusion that there were several sightings of real, live unicorns?

Please note that several (all?) of the locations from which these reports originated are actually quite populated areas - they might be woodsy, but they're hardly wilderness.

Now, moving on to fossil history. Perhaps we aren't looking in the right area for the fossils?
I illustrated very well for you upthread that people look for fossils in areas that produce fossils. Our North American fossil record comes from productive sites all over the continent, and encompasses the entire suspected distribution of "bigfoot."

By most peoples' arguments on here, this NORTH AMERICAN PRIMATE never existed until 2 years ago.
I think you may be a bit confused. Check out the attached chart of geologic time divisions of the Cenozoic Era. Primates are thought to have arisen in the Paleocene Epoch of the Cenozoic Era - in North America. This is right after the end of the Cretaceous Period of the Mesozoic Era, i.e., the end of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. The link you provided describes a North American fossil from 55 million years ago.

Primate fossils from North America are nothing new. In fact, they are something old: We've known for quite some time that primates were scampering about the North American forests in the Paleocene. Of course, these primates looked more like tarsiers and galagos than apes and humans. The bigger issue, however, is that primates ultimately went extinct in North America after dispersing to South America and then to the Old World where their many descendants remain today. (For example, apes don't appear until the Oligocene.) By the dawn of the Pleistocene (1.64 mya), there were no primates in North America, and there hadn't been for tens of millions of years.

Ideas on the dispersal of "bigfoot" to North America from its presumed point of origin in Eurasia mirror those of other Eurasian fauna - including Homo sapiens: Dispersal via an overland route occurred during periods of lowered sea levels coinciding with maximum glaciation. If there's such a thing as bigfoot in North America, then its most likely dispersal scenario involves overland access via the Bering Land Bridge about 20,000 years ago. (Note that recent finds are pushing human colonization back to earlier and earlier periods -maybe 40,000 or 50,000 year ago via boat-assisted coastal dispersal.) When sea levels rose again as glaciers receded, the land bridge was submerged and dispersal overland was no longer possible. Thus the latest something like a bigfoot could have colonized North America was about 6000 years ago. (The earliest date is more like 35,000 years ago.)

No, there's no escaping the lack of fossil evidence for bigfoot in North America. It's a giant, gaping, cavernous hole in the alleged evidence for bigfoot. In my experience, the vast majority of people who believe in bigfoot have very limited understanding of the significance of the fossil record. They get distracted by bigfooter arguments about people "not looking for fossils" or references to the unlikelihood of fossil formation. It's a classic "can't see the forest for the trees" thing.
 

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Hi Folks.
Missing airplanes:

http://www.adn.com/2010/09/04/1440036/reward-offered-for-finding-missing.html

Is this the area of the ice fields?

Yes, one just to the southwest of take-off, plus the Ocean, and a huge lake, and extremely rugged terrain. If they overshot King Salmon at all it's ocean again. In case you didn't notice, it is full-on winter here and became so right after this plane was lost. Down there is a little warmer but it was less than a month from the missing report and snowfall up here.

So for one thing this shows how desperate a person can be in trying to pose "evidence". It also is a nice conveyor belt if you deploy it right to keep your opponents responding to an endless series of airplane wrecks instead of you showing any physical evidence of bigfoot.

This is a logical fallacy you are trying to use here too. More than one, but the "drawing the wrong conclusion" fallacy is blinking red.

Your thesis is unspoken, which is one of the great things about arguing disengenuously. But the thesis appears to be that if you can find a case of an airplane that was never found, then Bigfoot exists.

I say instead it proves there are 190 planets in our solar system. Or maybe that the moon landing was a hoax.

http://poppypundit.wordpress.com/2007/09/18/those-other-missing-airplanes/

Showing that other airplanes were found during the Fosset search. This can show the argument on both sides, however, I would like to show that for some reason, large search parties were unable to locate these wreckages during the original searches.

That is not what the article says. I "find" downed planes here too. But that's because they are left there. It isn't worth taking a totalled aircraft out by helicopter.

Regardless of what you think you are showing, missing airplanes have extremely simple reasons - all these others you have showed so far were either over water bodies or ice fields. Or a demand we have to find planes under the snow.

At what point do you observe the evidence you have actually submitted?

The tactic of selective attention/inattention is being used here. All of the "missing aircraft" submitted are easily explained. Therefore, ignore those and continue searching. As soon as that one is explained, look for more.

Instead of paying attention to the very "evidence" you submitted, it is instead discarded and you disallow us from using it to show the opposite of what you claim.

So how about dropping that tactic and admitting that every single case you have brought before us so far is so easily explained?
 
Transitioning over to talk about the 'millions' of people that are allegedly in the woods at this very second with cameras drawn in extreme backcountry where this creature allegedly resides in the PNW. Well. Think about that.

Millions....3 million in the backcountry of OR/WA/Norhtern CA? Really? With cameras drawn to get a photo of a fleeing animal? Just think about it. 3 million people hiking with cameras ON, FOCUSED TO A SPECIFIC POINT, and AIMED? I won't hang my hat on that hypothesis.

Though in one post you claimed to be an outdoorsman, you display a naivete that leads me to believe that can't possibly be true. Your concept of "wilderness" is suspect as much of the lower 48, including the PNW, has been logged off, explored by geologists, hunters, hikers, campers and fisherman. Entire states like Wisconsin and Michigan were almost completely clear-cut. Where do you imagine a large bipedal primate would hide during this, one step ahead of the loggers?

I have camped and fished in Nunavut; no roads for hundreds of miles, no settlements, no nothing. But setting up camp on an island in the middle of a large lake, what do I find but stones delineating the tent rings of the Caribou Inuit. From hundreds of years prior. No Bigfoot though.
 
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I have camped and fished in Nunavut; no roads for hundreds of miles, no settlements, no nothing. But setting up camp on an island in the middle of a large lake, what do I find but stones delineating the tent rings of the Caribou Inuit. From hundreds of years prior. No Bigfoot though.

That is really cool. I have seen Northern Canada on a flight from Europe to the West Coast. It was amazing to fly for miles without the slightest sign of human activities. When you fly over the US, it is hard to go for even a few minutes without seeing some kind of signs of human activity. Even over the desert one can see the occasional road or town. But on this over flight of Canada it was nothing but snow, trees and occasional lakes for several hours. We flew over Hudson Bay and the ice was breaking up into huge slabs. Quite a sight.

As to the subject:
I was disappointed to see Cotter mention anecdotal sightings of bigfoot as probative evidence for bigfoot. I think this has been shown to have exactly zero probative value as existence of bigfoot by arguments put forth in this thread
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If bigfoot was remotely as common as these stories would suggest it is a certainty that clear cut evidence would have been found for it, so almost all the stories are false per force. Since we know almost all of the stories are false there is not probative evidence available from the stories because just based on the stories one can't determine if they are all false or just almost all of them are false.

As to the downed airplane analogy evidence: I think AlaskaBushPilot has done a good job of answering this one. Most downed airplanes over non-ice covered land are found, but even if a few aren't it is huge stretch to see this as any kind of evidence for bigfoot. Downed airplanes don't need to move, eat, mate, find shelter, find each other or leave fossils. Real animals do.

The existence of a non-supernatural bigfoor creature in North America is essentially impossible because the size of the population would need to be have been very small over a large time period because otherwise it is certain that it would have been detected but it can't be very small because a very small group of primates living in North American couldn't possibly be stable over a long time period. This hypothetical bigfoot population would need to exist over a long time without either getting wiped out by a single catastrophic event or experiencing favorable conditions where they multiplied substantially and became a large group. I doubt that any such animal population has ever existed let alone a group of large primates.

At this point Cotter, it is hard to see why the evidence put forth in this thread for the non-existence of bigfoot is not sufficient to allow at least a determination that the creature is wildly unlikely . I can understand the idea of trying to distinguish between the wildly unlikely and the impossible, but your last post seems more like routine bigfoot mythologizing than a search for truth.
 
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