Biden for President?

[Stacyhs]

It was bait to reveal the hidden animus of some people on this forum. Bait that was swallowed whole, if you read back the last few pages. Sweeping statements about dishonesty and car loans have been made. I'm pretty proud of myself for laying this trap.

We don't have to talk about her car loan if you don't want to. I surely don't think it's relevant, but there are other people here who would disagree.

Then stop bringing it up. No one talked about it before your oh, so clever 'trap'.

Reade's claims are largely unverifiable. It puts the party in a tough spot. Unless more accusers come forward in some sort of Weinstein or Cosby scenario, or something comes forward to definitively show that Reade is lying, we'll never know the truth about Biden. At least, that's what I see as the most likely outcome, no firm conclusion one way or the other.

They're more than unverifiable; they've been shown to be inconsistent in several ways and definitively denied by people she says she reported her claims of harassment to at the time. Her accusations have been out for quite some time now and no other woman has come forward. Not a single one. In Trump's, Weinstein's and Cosby's cases, many women came forward quickly. In all three cases, the allegations of sexual assault went back decades. This is the sole accusation of sexual assualt or harassment against Biden.

In Biden's favor is the fact that he called for any allegation (allegedly) filed by Reade to be searched for in the records.

We do know that he's pretty creepy and likes to nuzzle women in very offputting ways, but Reade's claims are much more serious than these strange PDA.

"We" know no such thing. That is your interpretation. Would I feel uncomfortable if a man put his hands on my shoulders? Probably. A lot of women are very sensitive when it comes to being touched by a man even if it's done in all innocence. It's part of our learned distrust of men and men can be largely unaware of it. For example, women tend to be much more aware of doing things that men never give a second thought to. For example, walking to our car alone at night in a parking lot or garage, or jogging by ourselves in a secluded area. Men do those things with little thought to their safety because they don't fear being sexually assaulted or murdered. Most women I know have been the victims of sexual harassment, attempted sexual assault, and/or actual sexual assault. Including me.

Trump is going to do what Trump does. He'll make hyperbolic claims that have tiny nuggets of truth in them. Biden has been inappropriately handsy with women, there's very bad looking photos all over the web.

A Trump Super Pac has already made a campaign ad aimed at this. Which is stupid for very obvious reasons.

The situation with Biden is made much worse by the hard-line stance the party took with Kavanaugh. I would agree Ford was a more convincing accuser, but we are still talking about cases where guilt or innocence really can't be proven to any certainty. It's a real mess.

I'll agree with this. It all comes down to credibility.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/716695ebc4bdfa5fcf.png[/qimg]



Then stop bringing it up. No one talked about it before your oh, so clever 'trap'.



They're more than unverifiable; they've been shown to be inconsistent in several ways and definitively denied by people she says she reported her claims of harassment to at the time. Her accusations have been out for quite some time now and no other woman has come forward. Not a single one. In Trump's, Weinstein's and Cosby's cases, many women came forward quickly. In all three cases, the allegations of sexual assault went back decades. This is the sole accusation of sexual assualt or harassment against Biden.

In Biden's favor is the fact that he called for any allegation (allegedly) filed by Reade to be searched for in the records.



"We" know no such thing. That is your interpretation. Would I feel uncomfortable if a man put his hands on my shoulders? Probably. A lot of women are very sensitive when it comes to being touched by a man even if it's done in all innocence. It's part of our learned distrust of men and men can be largely unaware of it. For example, women tend to be much more aware of doing things that men never give a second thought to. For example, walking to our car alone at night in a parking lot or garage, or jogging by ourselves in a secluded area. Men do those things with little thought to their safety because they don't fear being sexually assaulted or murdered. Most women I know have been the victims of sexual harassment, attempted sexual assault, and/or actual sexual assault. Including me.



A Trump Super Pac has already made a campaign ad aimed at this. Which is stupid for very obvious reasons.



I'll agree with this. It all comes down to credibility.

Biden's weird handsiness has been widely mocked for years now, well before our current political moment. I think it's pretty safe to say everyone that isn't a Biden partisan finds these incidents cringe-inducing.

Here's the daily show dunking on him in 2015.

"THE AUDACITY OF GROPE"
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/yfmksi/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-the-audacity-of-grope

 

[theprestige]

At this point it's just bouncing the rubble.

The party has already decided she's a liar. The wagons are circled, her claim is dead. Any further digging into her background is just vengeance for having made the complaint in the first place.

Can't wait to find out, in a week or so, that she cheated on her algebra homework, or gave her boyfriend the clap, or any other sordid detail meant to humiliate and discredit her. Twitter is on the case!

Sad but true.

Anyone want to talk about Biden's third appearance on Snapchat's daily politics show? Vanity Fair does. Here's what they have to say:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/202...ernet-memes-and-fighting-trump-from-his-house

 

[wareyin]

I made no such assumption. That was a direct reading of your post on the matter.

Don't drag the joke out, it kills the humor.

Nobody really gives a **** at this point, though.

The important thing is that none of this matters because we have Mr. Electable to fall in line behind.

Well, he's electable until enough BernieBros make up enough crap about him to tip the election to Trump again. We can all see through Reade's story, but there are going to be some bitter BernieBros who are too gullible and can't, or who are too invested in some fantasy narrative where they can get Biden to step down and St Bernard will fly in to save the day so they ignore all the holes and red flags. All the rational, eye on the big picture type people can do is keep on leading those people to the truth and pointing out how their own actions are hurting themselves and have a huge chance of hurting everyone else.

 

[wareyin]

At this point it's just bouncing the rubble.

The party has already decided she's a liar. The wagons are circled, her claim is dead. Any further digging into her background is just vengeance for having made the complaint in the first place.

Can't wait to find out, in a week or so, that she cheated on her algebra homework, or gave her boyfriend the clap, or any other sordid detail meant to humiliate and discredit her. Twitter is on the case!

Read as: I have ignored all the documented fraud, scams and lies so far, and I will continue to minimize further evidence as it comes out!

 

[Pterodactyl]

I'm sure it has been noted, but Biden's best/only real attribute or selling point as a candidate against Trump is that he has such a milquetoast, uninspiring persona that (almost) nobody finds him particularly objectionable.
... "at least he's not senile!" Well...
... "at lease he's not a sexual predator" Well..

Once you start chipping away at or muddying the difference between the two men, you've effectively eliminated at least one concrete argument to be made is support of one vs. the other. I fear the bigger personality will win.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I'm sure it has been noted, but Biden's best/only real attribute or selling point as a candidate against Trump is that he has such a milquetoast, uninspiring persona that (almost) nobody finds him particularly objectionable.
... "at least he's not senile!" Well...
... "at lease he's not a sexual predator" Well..

Once you start chipping away at or muddying the difference between the two men, you've effectively eliminated at least one concrete argument to be made is support of one vs. the other. I fear the bigger personality will win.

His selling point is not being Donald J Trump.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

At this point, with covid-19 and the free-falling economy, I have no idea what political predictions could be made for the election. Any result will be so heavily influenced by the uniquely terrible crisis we are in that it will be hard to draw broader political meaning from it.

General wisdom is that an economic crisis hurts the incumbent, and there's pretty compelling evidence that Trump is doing an exceptionally terrible job resulting in bodies piling up. I would assume this doesn't help Trump. For normal voters who don't spend their free time agonizing over politics, I would imagine this current crisis will be #1 in their mind.

Who knows at this point though?

 

[wareyin]

I am not claiming that she did. Others are saying that this had to be more than a bad check and I’m illustrating that it didn’t have to be more than that.

The fact is that no one knows what the purged record actually means other than it directly references the bad check statute.

Well, you're claiming that it didn't have to be more than that, but the illustrations are not actually there. So far we have one claim that possession of marijuana is totally just like a bounced check, and one claim that a bounced check on a closed account that didn't have a court case filed is totally the same as the check fraud case Reade had filed against her. There's also Dr. Keith's bizarre claim that most states have the same program for a bounced check. In opposition, we have quite a few posters from quite a few different states who've never heard of such a thing despite bouncing checks themselves.

 

[Stacyhs]

Take it up with Stachys, who seeems to think it's a scandal that this law degree holding women can't manage her finances.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Hiding a car from the repo man is dishonest and, in some states, illegal. You can't keep a car you can't pay for.

I stated a fact. How you infer from this that I think it's a scandal is a mystery.
But I guess when you have nothing else, resorting to ridiculous hyperbole is all you have left.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Nice try. The economy in 2014-2016 was doing just fine. Low unemployment. For someone who had a law degree, Reade seems to have had a long standing issue with finances. Could be bad luck, could be she just isn't very responsible, could be she just has problems.

I see you ignore the issue with the dates of her GoFundMe and taking on unnecessary and expensive financial responsibilities when she couldn't even pay for her car.

>snipped <

Again, how do you infer I think this is somehow a scandal? May I remind you that it was you who said "What’s unemployment like right now? Be a few hiding cars from repo." My reply countered your attempted diversion to today's unprecedented economy. Additionally, how does saying "Reade seems to have had a long standing issue with finances. Could be bad luck, could be she just isn't very responsible, could be she just has problems," amount to declaring it a scandal? It doesn't. Your desperation is showing.

This is all a diversion to cloud the fact that you have still not addressed the fact that:

Reade knew her car was in repossession. She was hiding it. That is dishonest. At the same time, she gets Lynn Hummer, the rescue operator, to waive adoption fees for a horse and takes on the responsibilities of paying for board, feed, shoeing, and ...oh, yeah....vet bills. While she can't pay the bank for her car. She also gets a sucker at the horse rescue to start a GoFundMe for Reade so she can get away from her abusive husband. Only......this was between 2014 and 2016 when Reade's husband divorced her in 1996. Nah....Reade is honest and credible.

 

[xjx388]

Yes, the check fraud, the thefts, the go-fund-me, etc. are all part of a pattern of unreliability. So are the story changes, both hers and those of her witnesses.

Prove the check fraud. You don’t even know what the charge was.

Prove the thefts. There is no theft case.

Start to look at each one of these items that are “part of a pattern of unreliability,” and you will see 1)They have very little actual substance and 2)They have ****-all to do with sexual assault allegations against Biden.

It’s pure character attack. She’s a shady character so don’t believe her.

 

[wareyin]

Prove the check fraud. You don’t even know what the charge was.

Prove that there was a court case filed with her name over check fraud? We've already seen the images, and her lawyer isn't denying it. I sort of think he would if it hadn't happened, but admittedly I'm not a lawyer and maybe pointedly refusing to deny things is a good strategy.

Prove the thefts. There is no theft case.

I get that you haven't read Hunter's documentation, but the thefts are well documented. There are plenty of witnesses as well.

Start to look at each one of these items that are “part of a pattern of unreliability,” and you will see 1)They have very little actual substance and 2)They have ****-all to do with sexual assault allegations against Biden.

It’s pure character attack. She’s a shady character so don’t believe her.

I take it that you are in the habit of believing shady characters? Especially if they have all these documented instances of theft and fraud? Let me guess, you voted Trump last time?

 

[theprestige]

Don't drag the joke out, it kills the humor.



Well, he's electable until enough BernieBros make up enough crap about him to tip the election to Trump again. We can all see through Reade's story, but there are going to be some bitter BernieBros who are too gullible and can't, or who are too invested in some fantasy narrative where they can get Biden to step down and St Bernard will fly in to save the day so they ignore all the holes and red flags. All the rational, eye on the big picture type people can do is keep on leading those people to the truth and pointing out how their own actions are hurting themselves and have a huge chance of hurting everyone else.

Why all the hate for Bernie Bros? Do you really think they're the problem?

 

[xjx388]

There is rarely hard evidence -- witnesses, videos -- of a sexual assault. Even if a rape kit reveals semen, the assailant will claim sex was consensual. It ultimately comes down to "he said, she said," and whose account is more believable.

True, it's why so many men accused of rape are found not guilty or never prosecuted in the first place. But whether or not the accuser ever bounced a check, stole something, etc is never relevant to the rape case. What's relevant are the facts of the accusation, never the character of the accuser.

If someone has a proven history of lies and fraud, that diminishes her account, just as someone's denial would be diminished if he had a proven history of assault. Every case must be examined on its own terms, as would be the case for an accusation of any other crime.

If the accuser had a history of accusing men of raping her and then retracting it or having it proved impossible, then sure, that may be relevant. But who she is, what she does? That's never relevant.

Every case must be examined based on the facts, not subjective evaluations of credibility. "She allegedly stole from a horse charity in 2014," has absolutely no relevance to what allegedly happened in 1993.

I continue to contend that what most raises doubts about Reade's claims is that she says she doesn't remember where this happened. She worked on Capitol Hill. She was familiar with the multiple buildings, and she says she was sent to meet Biden in a specific public place. But she just doesn't remember where it was? I don't need to know more than that to doubt her accusation.

I have no problem with that at all. It's an unprovable accusation. I wouldn't say I doubt it but I have no reason to believe it -at least, no reason to say "Biden should step down."

It's something to consider, sure. I wouldn't dismiss it outright. But it's not enough to take any action on other than personal, "I will still vote for Biden/I won't vote for Biden."

 

[theprestige]

His selling point is not being Donald J Trump.

Which is why gaffes and creepiness are such killers for his candidacy. We've got a whole group of Yale psychiatrists telling us that when a person acts crazy or demented on social media and in TV appearances, that's a good indicator that they're crazy and demented.

I don't think that's fair to Trump or Biden, but I didn't invent this narrative. Unfortunately, it's the narrative Biden has to work with.

 

[Stacyhs]

Kavanaugh also had a long public life where Ford would have had many opportunities to make an allegation. Why did she wait?
I think it's worth noting MeToo movement has only really gained a lot of steam in the last 5 years.

Perhaps because he had just been nominated to the highest court in the land?
Ford wrote a confidential letter to her Senator. In it she said,

On July 6 I notified my local government representative to ask them how to proceed with sharing this information . It is upsetting to discuss sexual assault and its repercussions, yet I felt guilty and compelled as a citizen about the idea of not saying anything.

That letter was leaked without Ford's consent or participation. And remember that she was only 15 when she says she was forcibly raped. Ford never mentioned being assaulted to anyone but her therapist and husband. She never publicly praised Kavanaugh. She never changed her story.


On the other hand, Reade publicly praised her alleged assaulter for fighting against exactly what she claimed he'd done to her. She told people she had worked for him...even 'bragged'.
She first claimed he'd only
“used to put his hand on my shoulder and run his finger up my neck,” and "she didn’t feel she was a victim of sexualization, instead comparing it to being treated like an inanimate object, like a lamp. "It’s pretty. Set it over there,” she told the paper. “Then when it’s too bright, you throw it away.”

The first time she made allegations of sexual assault was in an interview with Katie Halper. Interestingly, Halper is a fourth generation socialist and dedicated Bernie Sanders fan and supporter. I doubt it's a coincidence that Reade chose Halper's podcast to make her announcement on. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that Halper's podcast took place just a couple weeks after Biden all but wrapped up the nomination.

The difference in how the two women handled this is striking. IN MY OPINION, Reade was/is seeking attention. I simply do not believe her.

 

[xjx388]

Prove that there was a court case filed with her name over check fraud? We've already seen the images, and her lawyer isn't denying it. I sort of think he would if it hadn't happened, but admittedly I'm not a lawyer and maybe pointedly refusing to deny things is a good strategy.

That doesn't prove check fraud. That proves there was a case filed, the case referenced the bad check code and the record was expunged. Literally nothing else is known about this at all.

I get that you haven't read Hunter's documentation, but the thefts are well documented. There are plenty of witnesses as well.

Let's assume that she did indeed steal from the Horse Charity in 2014. What does that tell us about Reade in 1993, 21 years before?

I take it that you are in the habit of believing shady characters? Especially if they have all these documented instances of theft and fraud? Let me guess, you voted Trump last time?

Cute, but misses the mark.

I am not in the habit of tearing apart a woman's life and attacking her character because she accuses a well-known man of rape. This approach is kind of morally disgusting to me. Troubled women get raped. I wouldn't dream of holding their past or character against them when evaluating the rape allegation. Only the evidence matters.

 

[wareyin]

Why all the hate for Bernie Bros? Do you really think they're the problem?

They're a problem, but not necessarily the problem. Maybe it's foolish, but I think they might be convinced to stop shooting themselves in the foot while cutting off their own nose. I know Trump supporters can't be convinced.

 

[wareyin]

That doesn't prove check fraud. That proves there was a case filed, the case referenced the bad check code and the record was expunged. Literally nothing else is known about this at all.

It proves there was a check fraud case, which you questioned the existence of.

Let's assume that she did indeed steal from the Horse Charity in 2014.

Sure, let's assume something that was documented to have happened and had multiple witnesses claiming happened did happen. How generous we're being!

What does that tell us about Reade in 1993, 21 years before?

It's more a question of what it tells us about Reade in 2020. And it, combined with all the other stuff going back to 1993, tells us that Reade has a loose relationship with honesty, integrity, and the truth. We aren't dealing with a story Reade told in 1993. We're dealing with the story she told in 2020, which is different from the one she told in 1993, which is different from the one she told in 2009, which is different from the one she told in 2017, which is different from the one she told in 2019.

Cute, but misses the mark.

I am not in the habit of tearing apart a woman's life and attacking her character because she accuses a well-known man of rape. This approach is kind of morally disgusting to me. Troubled women get raped. I wouldn't dream of holding their past or character against them when evaluating the rape allegation. Only the evidence matters.

There is no evidence. Reade can't remember when, or where, or who she told. There is only judging character at this point to see who is more credible. A decades long history of fraud, theft, changing stories, and multiple other accusations of sexual assault by Reade that have contradictory info* as well paint a picture of whether or not we should believe her.


*She accused her father, while claiming that the small town sports writer was actually a rich and powerful defense contractor. I believe she also accused her ex-husband after he filed divorce charges against her, but the first couple of pages on a google search are full of the newer claims.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

*She accused her father, while claiming that the small town sports writer was actually a rich and powerful defense contractor. I believe she also accused her ex-husband after he filed divorce charges against her, but the first couple of pages on a google search are full of the newer claims.

Care to explain this?

Her father's obit lists his career as a writer... and as a public relations manager for Honeywell, a large corporation with a significant amount of defense contracting work. Honeywell supplies avionics and missile technology. I imagine managing public relations for such a large corporation is a lucrative gig. Rich and powerful defense contractor sounds like a fair descriptor to me.

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/wausaudailyherald/obituary.aspx?n=robert-moulton&pid=177929024

How is her characterization inaccurate?

I have the feeling I read the same article as you that proposed this line of attack, which means you were really combing the web to find some other smear against Reade. Congrats.